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Reader Comments (47)

Posted: Feb 12th 2010 8:24AM (Unverified) said

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I think any 'raid' that has a head-count limit is bad.
Back in the day in EQ, some guilds needed 100 people for some mobs, while others needed 35-40. Communication with teamwork overcomes a lot of the numbers game (at least in oldschool EQ).
Organizing for boss mobs that required such a force also forced lots of guilds to form alliances with others, as well as cause some drama with opposing guilds. Any game that encourages such teamwork and communication on a mass scale is an MMO to me.
It feels like every game released these days makes everything on a small scale, which hinders the challenge aspect. Sure....some things are a pain in the butt - like organizing a specific time for 100 people to show up, but the reward is that much more satisfying once accomplished.

Posted: Feb 12th 2010 8:32AM GenericPerson said

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I see no reason there can't still be large world bosses that require 40+ people. They don't need to be part of the storyline, but maybe a minor story arc that leads you to them.

In WoW's instance bring back the World Bosses. Just the fact they are there and hard to beat would be enough to bring people to attempt them.

Posted: Feb 12th 2010 8:40AM Pewpdaddy said

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In the begining the massive raids where a real pain. But if your interested in raiding your by nature also interested in a guild. In which case raiding becomes a lot more accessible. I didnt get to do a whole lot in EQ, I did Innoruuk a few times, Obsidian in the Hole, and the Spiroc Lord in PoS, Some of the PoP raids, I also did the fish for the bard epic but he was a sissy. But overall the old school raids did seem much more epic. I mean really you cant logically put a 30 sec. death touch on a 25 man boss. =p

Though even more recently I greatly preferred the larger scale of even the 40 man raids. MC was a dream for me I really enjoyed healing in there. The 25 man's had some tough fights but nothing really required the amount of awareness of the 40's. In my opinion 10 mans are to blow off steam. Simply find your adult beverage of choice and begin the run with a few simple rules. If you cause a wipe, DRINK.... If your a healer or a tank and someone dies... DRINK ... If your a wacko and run ahead of the group and die ... DRINK... =] Makes the 10 mans much more interesting this way.

Overall though the classic 40-70+ member raids just seemed more epic almost by default due to the huge numbers needed to get it done. And to those that say it lessens your chances of getting in, I did a number of runs after Planes of Power came out in EQ that where PUG's... Granted the base was from Afterlife on MithMarr but it was a pug none the less.

Posted: Feb 12th 2010 8:44AM (Unverified) said

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The 10 man raids (in WoW at least) are quite a bit harder then the 25 mans are.

You can lose a few people here and there due to death during a boss fight in 25's but typically if you lose someone in a 10m it's a wipe.

You've got way more personal responsibility when there are less players involved.

Anyhow, to answer the articles question; the old 40 man raids where okay, but I'm personally against having too many people, the delays and such when you've got more people are higher, you're forever sitting around waiting on 1 or 2 people that have real life stuff, etc. Explaining the content to people that don't take the time to research it because they're lazy, having to have a bunch of crappy players tag along to fill spots because it's pretty hard to find 40 solid players..

Yeah, 10 - 25 people is about perfect and way more manageable.

Posted: Feb 12th 2010 8:44AM (Unverified) said

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With a site called "MASSIVELY" how can you even ask this question?!

I remember when Everfrost was filled with 180+ players, just on the possibility that Vox might attack.

10-man... 25-man... boring! These games are virtual realities... and real life has lots of people!

How is it that Dark Age of Camelot could have siege warfare in 2001, but today it's more common to restrict the size of battle?

LAME!

Why don't game developers wake up and go with large battles / twitch controls... and then maybe the industry won't feel so stale. Oh look at me... I pressed attack... let me watch my character swing his weapon. When your so-called massively multiplayer game has a player cap lower than MAG... lower than Modern Warfare... maybe these games aren't really MMORPGs after all.

Posted: Feb 12th 2010 8:45AM shipwreck said

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I think it's great to have huge raids as an option, but in terms of sheer pragmatism the smaller raids are quicker, easier, and generally more fun. Though they are definitely playing to the middle, I've loved Turbine's approach to endgame instances in Mirkwood with the numerous 3-man's and fewer 6-12 man instances.

I realize some people like to raid very much and love the challenge of coordinating a large group, but I love how accessible small group instances are, even if they aren't technically "raids".

Posted: Feb 12th 2010 8:56AM (Unverified) said

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I've enjoyed both types of raid, but I do miss the huge public raids we used to run where everyone could just turn up and take part.

Posted: Feb 12th 2010 8:53AM (Unverified) said

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As much as I enjoy the romanticized idea of epic scale 40+ man raids, it just doesn't seem to be feasible in reality. Technology doesn't seem to be at a point where it is an enjoyable experience.

I've run a lot of raids, on a lot of systems, and there is always some kind of lag or server crash or SOMETHING no matter how bad ass my rig is in a given game.

I prefer smaller 12 to 25 man raids where I can actually play and enjoy it, not just stand around with 100 other people and skip and stutter.

Posted: Feb 12th 2010 9:00AM Boruk said

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Warhammer Online ALMOSt had this situation perfected with their Public Quest system, but their over-use of it diminished its capabilities.

I miss the days of large scale un-instanced world fights/epic quest lines where major events happened for all to see (Ring War in EQ anyone). Now imagine that type of content mixed in with the Public Quest system.

Now you get a huge hardcore raid getting the big quest done and getting thier Epic Loot from the quest, while others that just come to experience the event and possibly help take out adds and such, also get a chance to "get something" for helping out and being part of it.


BTW, I think I have a screenshot almost exactly like the one above, but off my Druid...those were the days.

Posted: Feb 12th 2010 9:01AM Boruk said

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Those were also the days where dungeon runs were open events, not instanced like everything is now.

Posted: Feb 12th 2010 9:06AM (Unverified) said

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Vanguard FTW in that dept.
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Posted: Feb 12th 2010 9:19AM wjowski said

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Yes, and the amount of cock-blocking and griefing on said games was epic-level. Several of the older servers in EQ back at in it's height, for example, had a reputation for being cesspools of ill-will.
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Posted: Feb 12th 2010 9:35AM Boruk said

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That's a given on any game out back in the day and now as people are going to be jerks, if they can get away with it without anyone knowing who they really are.
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Posted: Feb 12th 2010 12:43PM wjowski said

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Yeah, but rival guilds can't screw you over in most modern MMOs the way did in Everquest.
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Posted: Feb 12th 2010 9:03AM Devilstower said

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Honestly, the most engaging large-scale activity I've ever experienced in an MMO was not a raid -- those 100 man dungeon sweeps tended to be just this side of chaos.

No, the best, most organized and most enthralling MMO experience I've ever had was the large scale conflict in the PvP areas of Dark Age of Camelot.

When you had teams of people building siege gear and trying to take down doors, others scaling walls, archers lending support, casters standing back to heal, those inside the castle raining down hot oil and firing back with their own ranged weapons -- it was an enormous activity, one that could easily involve 100 players on each side -- and yet it was one that demanded both teamwork and individual heroics. Even when you finally broke into the castle or keep, the fight wasn't over and you could easily find that you had the forces to get through the wall but not enough advantage to oust the current owners.

No game since (including WarHammer) has so successfully built PvP as a community activity, or made the control of PvP areas so integral to the rest of the game.

Posted: Feb 12th 2010 10:49AM (Unverified) said

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I agree 150% DAoC Really had something special. I'm really sad that mythic wasted their funds on Warhammer Online. DAoC #2 = market sweep. I've been using that idea to draft my own game idea and hopefully end up showing it to mythic.
I have dreams about frontier pvp all the time. Always wake up happy.
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Posted: Feb 12th 2010 4:14PM (Unverified) said

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Agreed. In the 13 years I've been playing MMOs, nothing has been able to hold a candle to the RvR experience of DAoC.

Imagine a reboot of the franchise where Mythic leveraged social networks and the RvR was @ the center of the experience.
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Posted: Feb 12th 2010 9:42AM DrewIW said

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EVE does it right. 10/10 plexes and C6 sleeper sites (the hardest pve content in the game) have no upper limit. You can bring a lot of people to brute force it, or you can use a smaller group with better coordination and skills.

Posted: Feb 12th 2010 9:37AM Ocho said

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I personally have never been into 40+ or even 25+ man raids. Since I fall within the majority of the bellcurve of players, I don't have time to play every night, or weekends, etc. So raiding for me isn't an option when guilds demand three times a week or more just to participate. To me, thats not a game anymore, thats a job. Show up at a certain time, work for a few hours... all for... what? A drop rate that is rediculously low, coupled with the fact you're fighting with others for the same items? Usually it turns out to be a less than 5% chance you'd get something you need. So if I have to raid 20 times, a few hours at a clip, just to get one upgrade? Rediculous. No thank you, that not how I roll.

However, I won't demean anybody who loves that kind of thing, who gets a huge sense of accomplishment when they finally get their drop and win it fairly. Awesome. Nothing is better than setting a long term goal and making it come to fruition. Its great, and certainly applies to life in general.

But the number of individuals who have the capability and time available to do huge 40+, 100+ man raids are on the far end of the spectrum. Should MMO's cater just to them? No, they'd never make money that way. Should MMO's ignore them? Absolutely not. They're the ones with the pimp weapons and armor and get everyone else excited to attain those goals, too. They're a necessity to drive players to their fullest.

WoW has the 10 man raids now because they understand they're catering to a more mature player base, and was losing a lot of people who just didn't have time to do the end-game material. So I love them. They give a larger base of players a reward to attain. But getting rid of the HUGE stuff? No way. Thats a mistake. Am I personally ever going to see that content... probably not. But they're missing out on a massive MMO driving force if they remove them.

As long as there is always a goal in sight, players will keep playing. You lose those goals, you lose your players.

Posted: Feb 12th 2010 9:52AM Vertago said

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I think that it is more 'EPIC' with more people. I'm not sure if this is the right example with this article mainly talking about instanced raids but I think more events should be held in the open world. In the peak days of Planetside when multiple continents became population locked, those battles were EPIC. Hundreds of people with Guns blazing charging at each other was truly some of the best times I have ever had in an MMO And when raids were organized it was even more so. Multiple Dropships filled with squads of 10 accompanied by escort aircraft and a column of Tanks below

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkmv8pSKZyo

I can't wait for the next open world MMOFPS

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