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Reader Comments (51)

Posted: Jan 28th 2010 10:21AM (Unverified) said

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/agree with Heraclea - hate when I'm in ICC25 and win a 264 something or other vs my current 245's / 251's, (or worse yet, in ICC10 when I win a 251 vs a 245, which is so minor of an upgrade, I often pass) when other folks in the group still have 232's or worse in that slot. In fact, I oftentimes will pass, even in pugs, if I see that the people rolling against me could really use the upgrade much more than I could, (not always, of course - too many times, and I'll be bumped from raids for being undergeared, but sometimes).

Would feel much better if I could cascade my stuff down, so I get my 264 if I win it, but could then pass my 245/251 down to the next highest, etc. Not only would help the group out much more than me sharding the old, but more importantly, I think would help add more to a sense of community / pleasantness than the current system, as it wouldn't be an all-or-nothing affair, and if anything is needed more in MMO's, (or the Internet, in general) it's something to reinforce smiles / pleasantness! :)

As to the badges themselves, is a toughie. On the one hand, (usually at the top end of the game, so Triumph pre-3.3, Frost now) it's a nice way of seeing that -eventually- you get something, with a rough target of probably one high-end piece every month or so if just running dailies, which won't really keep you competitive in higher-end raids, but at least gives you something now and again to keep you from being entirely marginalized if you're having a hard time getting into raids, (as my rogue currently is).

On the other hand, just dinged 80 with a new priesty two or three weeks ago. She's never been in a raid yet, and is already decked out in 4pc T9,(232) + a 232 staff. And while on the one hand, I'm very grateful that by the new deflation of the value of triumph badges, she can now be made ready for higher end raids just by personal effort, (i.e. running heroics / the new ICC 5-mans) it does, honestly, feel wrong - it took my rogue a couple of months to get 2pc T8 & 2pc T9, (not to mention weapons, which you still can't buy - got one Black Knight's Rondel after months of running H-ToC everyday, and never did manage to get a 2nd after another few months, for pvp) and my priesty just walks in, throws a pile of triumph badges on the counter like they're nothing, and says "I'll take two."

Ah well, s'pose as long as they keep boosting ilvls as significantly as they do in new content, (232->251's for 10's, 245->264's in 25's) guess the badge system needs to be in place to make sure everyone's geared, (/stays on the heroin.. ;) )
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Posted: Jan 28th 2010 12:37PM Sunlover said

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/agree with Heraclea and Kermit

I think the idea of "handing down" items, or "cascading" as you put it, is a wonderful idea. This would be awesome for groups of friends, guilds, and even random pugs.

As for the original topic, I am not a fan of the RNG at all. Tokens, though just another form of grind, allow everyone to walk away from an encounter with the promise of something eventually. Luck promises you nothing, and chance drops are more like hoping to win the lottery. No amount of skill in that encounter will help you when it comes to loot, and no reward is guaranteed for your mastery over whatever challenges you faced. And no, simply overcoming that challenge is not reward enough. Please have something waiting for us when it's over, be it loot, experience, or an interesting story/cutscene.

As a parting note, I'd like to continue to see some more rewarding gaming experiences, not just in terms of loot, but story, content, and community. I think it's time to start moving away from time invested and develop content and game systems that reward skill and smart decision making over mundane repetition.
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Posted: Jan 28th 2010 9:27AM archipelagos said

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Token, please.

Posted: Jan 28th 2010 11:11AM Gaugamela said

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I don't think that a token system or a loot system are automatically opposed to each other.
And i would also mention that there is the possibility of creating reputation systems to provide loot.

I like Allods system for example. You gain reputation with a faction in a area and that faction as equipment for most armor slots for sale in the Quartermasters. That could work very well in endgame complementing a traditional loot system.

Or else create a token system and a loot system. Make some rare items only obtainable through looting - but here's the catch: those lootable items should be crafting materials and available to be sold to other players. then to obtain the items from the dungeon you would need to craft them with the crafting materials available to everyone.

But i agree that a token system is way better.

Posted: Jan 28th 2010 1:01PM Pewpdaddy said

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A good balance of both would be my preference. If you're dropping a full raid 10,12,25,40, ?? some raids back in the day had no cap on members. The raid boss should carry better loot than the store. Why else do you put in the time to learn the strat and die many times trying. When some jackhole can run dungeons for tokens and get the same crap. I'm for the token portion but the loot from the hard fights and end game content should be hands down better. IMO

For Heraclea for me a good group of folks that get along well dont have raid politics. People pass items to each other and DKP works out the gimmicks... Back to the time is money thing. I've been on this raid X times and downed X bosses = DKP. If your in a spot where raiding is work your playing with the wrong group. The raids are supposed to be fun, the phat lewtz are just a bonus.

Posted: Jan 28th 2010 6:56PM Joystiq Login Bugs SUCK said

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Well there is a huge contradiction there in your words.

First you write: "The raid boss should carry better loot than the store. Why else do you put in the time to learn the strat and die many times trying. When some jackhole can run dungeons for tokens and get the same crap."

Then you write: "The raids are supposed to be fun, the phat lewtz are just a bonus."

This whole epeen stroking argument chain is flawed.

If the fun of the raid is the real reason and the loot is just an aside, a non-issue, why do you consider that a scrub shouldn't have the loot?

Would you run a raid that dropped no loot at all?
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Posted: Jan 28th 2010 10:10AM Holgranth said

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In my opinion the three best things Blizzard has added to WoW are:

1. Dungeon-finder
2. Dual Specs
3. Badges/Enblems

In that order, not none of those things are perfect all have problems but it is SO much better than the days of spamming the lfg for an hour to get a tank and/or healer, running the dungeon for an hour and having squat all to show for it.

Posted: Jan 28th 2010 10:31AM Scuffles said

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I'm surprised at the negative feedback coming from the same Warcraft community that seemed to love the idea of ....

....... an in game store that sold the same stuff so people who felt the need to go out and blow real life money on it didn't have to waist months of grinding to get a single piece of "epic" armor.

But seems to hate the idea of a token system where you would have to run several raids to collect enough tokens and could then buy outright a piece of armor. That you otherwise have to have the luck of dropping in a raid along with the luck of out rolling every other player of the same class. In the case of non restrictive armor, every other player who felt that they needed it ...... I'm looking at you healers who rolled on my dreadmist.

Personally had they had something like this back in the good oll days I might not have quit when faced with their bleak lack of endgame that left me grinding a hand full of "high lvl" dungeon(s) with the faint promise of some decent armor. A piece of which might drop every 10 runs or so and then you have to have the luck of out rolling every other (insert class here) to win it, Unless you were an unpopular class then you didn't have any competition ...... but you also didn't get invited on raids .......

Posted: Jan 28th 2010 1:07PM Pewpdaddy said

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Though I did play WoW for some time I'd be grateful if you wouldn't assume we are all WoWheads currently. =p That game burned me out a bit after TBC. =] Honestly just months after the Elite Dungeon tokens came out if my timing is close. =]
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Posted: Jan 28th 2010 10:53AM xyna031 said

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WTF?!?!!
TOkens? HHAHAHAHA
AOC anounced tokens(not the vets rewards) along ago... now blizz come and just grab the idea...blizzard is runing out of ideas

Posted: Jan 28th 2010 11:16AM (Unverified) said

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Blizzard has been using tokens since before the first expansion. It is merely how they are used that has continued to evolve and expand.
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Posted: Jan 28th 2010 2:44PM wjowski said

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Oh the bitter, bitter irony.
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Posted: Jan 28th 2010 10:53AM (Unverified) said

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Blizzard actually didnt come up with the idea of "tokens" like almost everything else in WoW it was taken from another game. DAOC has seals that were dropped from mobs and bosses in Darkness falls that you could trade and buy gear with, the gear was scaled but many people just bought them to melt the armor for bars to craft with. Its funny how much warcraft took from DAOC but thats another post.

Posted: Jan 28th 2010 2:51PM wjowski said

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Hardly surprising. Borrowing good ideas from other games has been part of Blizzard's design philosophy since Warcraft was still a RTS series.
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Posted: Jan 28th 2010 11:19AM (Unverified) said

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I would not have played much longer after classic if tokens had not been implemented. Doing a 6 hour raid and literally getting nothing out of it at all gets old real fast.

Posted: Jan 28th 2010 12:21PM (Unverified) said

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My biggest gripe is having to do the same content multiple times to earn a reward from a roll of the dice at the end. If I can complete an instance once, it is not entertaining to run it again exactly the same way.

Rather than increasing the longevity of content by forcing players to grind for drops, give them lots of variations on play style so they can play the instance again under new conditions. Have them run it as a time-trial, with special loot for clearing the boss under a certain time. Have them run the instance under the influence of a special debuff, forcing new tactics for old encounters. Give the players some mandatory equipment for certain slots, so they have to win with an equipment handicap. If you succeed, you get whatever reward that instance gives, whether it's a new weapon, a pet, or just a tick mark on a new achievement.

If I wanted to be rewarded for chance, I'd go play a slot machine.

-SirNiko

Posted: Jan 28th 2010 1:55PM (Unverified) said

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You don't think this, too, would also become tedious? At any rate, WoW already does this with heroics and achievements and whatnot. The trouble with this is that perhaps you are good enough to play a dungeon this way but your friends may not be. This adds to the problem, it doesn't solve it.
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Posted: Jan 28th 2010 2:54PM wjowski said

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There's no real way to solve it. No matter how good a dungeon is, you're going to get tired of it eventually, and no amount of content can last indefinately.
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Posted: Jan 28th 2010 6:54PM EngadgetSoFunny said

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Actually, this system works pretty well in Lord of The Rings Online. They have most instances with a 'Hard Mode' available where in each dungeon you have a seperate goal for a chance at an emblem/token tier-ish peice dropping from the boss. Of course, 1 person [every person in team] so you'd have to try it a few times.

I know one instances for example you are wearing 'disguises' and the goal is not to be 'seen' by these inspectors in part 1, not to be seen by 'officers' in part 2 and grand lieuntenats i npart 3. In each part though, you have to kill a new set of boss mobs, take their clothing for us as disguises and hide the bodies from the patrols.

So it was a bit of pulling/killing in the right area, kiting to where the body won't be found, killing fast enough the patrol doesn't catch the sounds of you fighting, dawning your uniform and sneaking around the patrols to first boss. A bit of strategy/fun to an otherwise fight-to-boss, kill-boss instance.

Each instance had a couple other challenges. One or two were time related like defeat all 20 waves of enemies in under 30 minutes, etc.

I wouldn't mind if say Wow added a 'Hard Mode' to dungeons designed to make heroics more tiered for level 80 players in Tier 9/10 gear and make say one chance for say 1 frost emblem to drop from the final boss and 2 triumps emblems from regular bosses say. So you could slowly gear in tier 10 gear once you've finished icc/became locked for the week. It sucks when you pug ICC cause nobody else in your real-life friends guild has to gear to do ICC, down 2 bosses, group disbands and then you have to wait another week or so to do ICC again. Lest you want to go through the task of finding 24 other pugs all not saved, all respectibly geared.
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Posted: Jan 28th 2010 12:20PM spodi said

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I think the better solution is one of the ones EQ2 is using for some of the larger Boss mob fights. The "smart loot" system (when it works) is a decent way to spread the loot wealth. The mobs have their set loot table you still have the chance to get the item you want, and for the most part reduces the chance the same item(s) drop all the time.

Tokens are nice and all, but all it really does it for people to farm the easiest mobs with the shortest reset timers to get the max number of shards / tokens for turn in.

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