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Posted: Dec 13th 2009 8:52PM (Unverified) said

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I think that the Metagame is one thing that Guildwars pulled off well, even if it wasn't intended. The complex build system and the constant skill "balances" keep the metagame flowing so that the optimal build is always changing.

Everyone starts using a setup and then someone works out a counter to that setup and the metagame keeps flipping through these states.

Posted: Dec 13th 2009 11:16PM Distaste said

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When I use metagame in MMO context I'm usually talking about the bigger game within the game. Take WoW PvE was a game in iteself and PvP was multiple different games. The metagame of WoW is to get gear. Then you have SWG where it had tons of games, crafting, cities, decorating, entertainment, hunting, gathering, flying, etc. The metagame of SWG was to create an online civilization in the Star Wars Universe. SWG was a truly deep metagame.

It sounds complicated but in reality it is basically how much is there to do and how does it all tie together. Once you've tied it all, that's your metagame. The author is right in that devs have truly started picking shallow metagames.

Posted: Dec 14th 2009 1:47AM (Unverified) said

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That entire posts revolves around him asking for MMO's to have no leveling process, steer away from gear-gathering, while claiming that he wants to make it a 'serious' MMO.

He doesn't like RPGs. At all. He can't. If he hates those things, then he's not an RPG player. I'm sorry. lol

He wants MMOs to offer another genre besides RPG. He should have just said that, instead of digressing into that attack of MMOs as not being 'serious' games. Sure, the endgame needs to be harder, require more planning, have more story. Sure the leveling process needs to be more involved, and less of an XP grind. But I, personally, still want an RPG.

They should definitely make another genre of RPG for people like him though.

Posted: Dec 14th 2009 1:48AM (Unverified) said

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*another genre of MMO
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Posted: Dec 14th 2009 4:56AM (Unverified) said

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[Not Having read the article he linked]
While I don't disagree with you, at the same time MMORPGs are not RPGs. The sooner developers get that out of their heads the better.

My point; MMORPGs should be centred around NOT ONLY single RPG elements (actually if anything they should lack those aspects, since single player RPGs will always do them better) but they should focus more on MMO-RPG elements. a.k.a. RPG of a community. Instead of one character changing the world around them all players need to RPG together.

e.g. Phrasing (not saying it is all bad, but Blizzard's usage so far is pathetic). Or I even just saw Guild Wars 2 mention it, instanced areas where progress depends on each and every person (a.k.a. you finish some quests so the room of a main NPC quest giver is different. That is RPG-styled gaming, BUT NOT MMORPG-styled gaming. No, a MMORPG wouldn't completely remove the fact that other player's achievements have nothing to do with your own game. Which sucks, because that is all I am seeing now days. WoW, players cannot do anything to stop or change the story because we all know X is going to respawn. TOR and now GW2 looks the same, MMORPGs need to get out of this pathetic hole that they are in because MMORPGs =!= RPGs.

Levels= exactly, they are from RPGs. Do they belong in MMORPGs? MMORPGs are a completely different medium. I don't at all dislike levels, but they limit what you can do in many ways. Creating a game without levels from what I can see, removes SO MANY problems that might exist and lets the endgame/metagame be the best it can be. Leveling in RPGs is very different from MMORPGs, in MMOs it is almost like a tutorial of types (you slowly get all your abilities, you learn all the ins and outs of a class, etc) while in RPGs it represents true story/character progression.
Imagine a game that took out leveling, and chose not to do it from the get-go. Leveling areas take amazing amount of time. Why instead you use those resources in other areas? And the ideas for those leveling areas/quests can go right into a game in a more compact and fun form (instead of grindy form with much more spaced out areas).

Gathering= There will ALWAYS be a type of gathering in MMORPGs (or in all games). This can never be escaped no matter if it doesn't even feel like gathering. Finding and picking up one sole item is gathering. Either way, I agree gear-gathering always needs to be there for the most part, even it is just from killing one player and you get some gear.

"They should definitely make another genre of RPG for people like him though." Should be called MMORPGs, snap! Don't confuse the two, they are VERY different.
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Posted: Dec 14th 2009 11:21AM ultimateq said

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I think MMORPGS and RPGs alike can do without leveling, you can still have progress without leveling. Ancient SWG did it, Mortal Online is going to do it. And taking the HUGE dependence on gear could be nice too. Gear can help, sure, but don't make it quite as powerful, rely more on the skill of the player and the skills of the character, rather than the gear you have on.

WoW, EQ, EQ2, etc etc, all prove that gear makes the character. You can be level 80 with level 1 gear, and die from a pebble getting tossed at your mullet. Or you can be level 80 with the best gear in the game, and obliterate everything in sight.

Not that I really mind levels and gear based RPGs, I play them with pride, it still might be nice to see something break away from the mold. Have more of an "endless progression" system, where there are no levels, and no limit to how powerful you can become, all based on skills. I don't know much about Eve, but I want to say it accomplishes it; though I'm not a reliable source for Eve information because I couldn't get around that deadly learning curve.
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Posted: Dec 14th 2009 1:18PM (Unverified) said

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"That entire posts revolves around him asking for MMO's to have no leveling process, steer away from gear-gathering, while claiming that he wants to make it a 'serious' MMO."

You take a very extreme view. This is not at all what I'm looking for in MMORPGs. I don't come close to suggesting this in my post. Nowhere do I say that leveling should be removed, only do I say that leveling is too long a process and it detracts from metagame development.

Because I suggest something different doesn't mean I'm suggesting an extreme.
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Posted: Dec 14th 2009 10:26PM (Unverified) said

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Sibe, it's not entirely accurate to say "levels are from RPGs." More accurate to say "levels are from Dungeons & Dragons", going back to the early days of pen & paper RPGs, there were non-level-based systems, e.g. Runequest which was a skill-based "increase skills by using them" system, or Champions, which of course we've just seen hit the MMORPG space, which had a point-buy system where you advanced your character by earning more points to spend.
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Posted: Dec 15th 2009 4:51AM godlyhalo said

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And then there is EVE.....Whoever thinks for a second that there is the best way to do something in EVE, then they need to have their brain checked out. Finding creative ways to accomplish something is often one of the more enjoyable aspects of EVE. Finding useful roles for ships that initially seem to have little purpose often can result in maniacal laughing and explosions of ships all around you.

Leveling in EVE is time player skill based rather than gear based. Most MMO's revolve around your gear to do things. In EVE, you just need a 1 day old character in a basic frigate to go around and kill people in ships worth 50+ mill and characters that are 8 months old. Player skill is the most important part of EVE, not which ships you can fly or how effective you can use Tech 2 modules.

Posted: Dec 17th 2009 9:48AM (Unverified) said

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EVE-ONLINE is the best balance I have ever played. The teamwork aspect of a fleet balances both advanced and new players.

Only a dummy starts a fight they can not win, so the real problem becomes finding targets. Eve gives the player thousands of paths to success.

Eve is not for casual gaming. It is hard core, six-hours at a time fun. You will ignore your cat, dog, kids, girlfriend, just to play another hour of Eve.

Plus its affordable and you can build skills even when you are not playing!

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