| Mail |
You might also like: WoW Insider, Joystiq, and more

Reader Comments (38)

Posted: Nov 30th 2009 3:27AM (Unverified) said

  • Half a heart
  • Report
Another nice tip to the author:

There is only ONE succesful kind of MMO play in the future and that is ...

"... hop in , do Y group based fun content in an alternate experience, play for X time and then hop out....in a Z world

X MUST be a variable from 30 minutes to ? hours.
Y MUST be as loose, free and non commited experience (read PUG) and easy enough to find groups in ... 30 seconds.
Z is a believable world the players "want" to believe and can guild in IF they want to.

Read --- what Blizzard made in ... patch 3.3 (check the cross realm dungeons and battlegrounds).

The rest is history and old mechanics from basement dwellers.

Posted: Nov 30th 2009 3:42AM Tizmah said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
Well, the thing is, single player RPGs have the advantage of not lasting so long.

In linear MMOs that have been released recently, they really feel like a single player game with occasional online play that are drawn out way to long to get to the point.

The player just needs to feel apart of the world to keep them there. That's the bottom line. That's why UO and EQ were so amazing and people stayed up for days playing it after their first time logging in. It was also the fact that those first MMOs were about engaging with other players.

Mainly all single player MMOs have the mind set on that ONE player and not ALL the players in mind.

Less single though, more multi thought. That doesn't just mean make an MMORPG with forcing grouping, it's about community in a virtual world.

Posted: Nov 30th 2009 4:01AM wjowski said

  • 1 heart
  • Report
The MMO crowd doesn't have a clue what people want in online gaming and arguably never did.

Posted: Nov 30th 2009 4:32AM (Unverified) said

  • 1 heart
  • Report
Yep.

That's why everyone of these guys wonder why one game has millions of western subscriptions and "their own favorites" die on dealer's shelves after 3 months.

These are G A M E S to play with.

Not lifestyles (or basements) to live in.

Reply

Posted: Nov 30th 2009 12:42PM (Unverified) said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
Care to actually make a point and contribute to the conversation instead of acting superior and adding nothing?
Reply

Posted: Nov 30th 2009 4:45AM (Unverified) said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
"I have a lot of difficulty with MMOs becoming so goal orientated. I don't think this is a design issue, but rather a playerbase choice that developers have had to satisfy."

I agree with this.

People need to realize that ALL gaming is redundant and pointless. MMO's shouldn't be about large world shaping goals because in the end...nothing really matters..

MMO's, like all games should be about the present. The here and now. Right now sitting in front of your computer playing a game you should ask yourself...Is this fun? Is this worth the total absolute waste of time? Do I like this Gameplay? Am I amused enough to sacrifice real world accomplishment, whether social or financial, for ingame? Am I enjoying myself RIGHT NOW?

Once target goals and things come into the picture then the game slowly starts to morph into the worst kind of irresponsible responsibility. A job that you have to pay to keep. Meanwhile the real world starts to pass you by.

Posted: Nov 30th 2009 10:47AM (Unverified) said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
Amen!
Reply

Posted: Nov 30th 2009 12:54PM (Unverified) said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
"MMO's shouldn't be about large world shaping goals because in the end...nothing really matters.."

Why should "nothing really matters" be an excuse for having poor gameplay? "Nothing really matters" justifies nothing (except for not being too attached to much to the corporeal). You could say that you shouldn't even get out of bed in the morning because "nothing really matters." It's a meaningless argument that pulls no weight because it can't even justify continuing to live.

"MMO's, like all games should be about the present."

And the present in MMOs is very boring, trivial gameplay. Grinding until you get whatever you want. The only variable is time invested. Skill has some effect, but it does not get you much farther than you could get through simply being a college student and having 10 hours a day to play.

The least MMOs can do is reward players for having some foresight (aside from rewarding exploiters) and planning beyond reading about character builds on a forum.

"Once target goals and things come into the picture then the game slowly starts to morph into the worst kind of irresponsible responsibility."

Actually, the game turns into an act that actually has some meaning behind it. Instead of accomplishing nothing except for advancing your level, gear, and gold count, you can change the very face of the world. Suddenly what you do has meaning to other people as well as yourself--even people that you don't know. This sounds like adding responsibility to games, which means making games more meaningful.

I'm not suggesting games go down the path of becoming "real life 2" at all, only that more meaningful games can lead to more fun. Adding more meaning up to a certain point is adding more fun.
Reply

Posted: Nov 30th 2009 4:49PM (Unverified) said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
I agree with your points Evizaer, but you seem to misunderstand me.

I'm talking on a Real Life level insofar as games(entertainment) having significant importance or meaning enough to justify the involvement necessary to reach target goals. That's why I say that in the end nothing really matters in regards to goals in an MMO because the outcome is irrelevant to your real life and the whole endeavor is and should only be considered entertainment.

It's not about goals. It's about the fun you are having right now, playing the game. The gameplay is paramount.

Achieving goals ingame has no relation to success in RL, therefore you must decide whether it's worth the sacrifice, or more to the point, is the gameplay FUN enough to warrant the effort.



Reply

Posted: Nov 30th 2009 6:12PM (Unverified) said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
"It's not about goals. It's about the fun you are having right now, playing the game. The gameplay is paramount. "

The fun "you are having right now" has much to do with what the game tells you or forces you to do. Goal generation is central to the quality of games, because what you do in games is all about progressing towards goals that, most often, the game is central in providing.
Reply

Posted: Nov 30th 2009 7:33PM (Unverified) said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
"The fun "you are having right now" has much to do with what the game tells you or forces you to do. Goal generation is central to the quality of games, because what you do in games is all about progressing towards goals that, most often, the game is central in providing."

This is true, but only to a certain extent. Take AoC for example...While I relished the idea of creating a player made city and engaging in sieges, the multidirectional combo attack system ultimately proved too laborious/monotonous for me to continue.

That would be a case where the goal was quite desirous, but the gameplay wasn't worth the effort involved..hence I wasn't having fun "right now" and I quit the game regardless of the goals.

To me the minute to minute gameplay must be entertaining and compelling before I even consider embracing the goals a game provides me.
Reply

Posted: Nov 30th 2009 7:52AM Bhagpuss said

  • 2.5 hearts
  • Report
I can set my own goals. What I need the developer to do is create a rounded, internally logical virtual environment within which I can pursue those goals.

This can include NPCs giving quests, big monsters with lots of treasure, dungeons to delve, archipelagos to explore. It can include towns to build, forts to defend against other players, houses to furnish and decorate, pets to tame and train, clothing to make and wear. There can be animals to hunt, land to farm, mysteries to uncover. Any and all of these and a million more.

What I don't need is anyone telling me what to do or when. I have an imagination for that.

Posted: Nov 30th 2009 12:56PM (Unverified) said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
Goal generation is about creating a world in which players can readily make their own goals and those goals can have meaning. It's not limited to handing the player something to do.
Reply

Posted: Nov 30th 2009 9:08AM (Unverified) said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
Maybe MMOs should overcome the "static world paradigm". Why not make a campaign-based MMO where player actions shape and change the game world with clearly defined goals to achieve by the players (be it in cooperation or competition).

I mean they do this kind of stuff with tabletop games on a global scale - it can't be to difficult to do this on a computer platform

Posted: Nov 30th 2009 12:10PM eNTi said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
well... since so many ppl have problems finding a goal in rl, it doesnt astound me, that it is hard to come up with something in an mmo.

Posted: Nov 30th 2009 1:48PM (Unverified) said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
sounds about right
Reply

Posted: Nov 30th 2009 4:38PM Averice said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
The article is just flat out wrong, if I've read the summary right. It's not harder to create a goal for players to accomplish in an MMO than it is in a single player game.

It appears as if the original article was written on the presumption of many players feeling bored within WoW, and that the writer is feeling that achievements are being weighted more and included more because they keep the game interesting, or some nonsense like that. And it is nonsense.

What's the Reason of completing a single player game? Three. 1: You enjoy the game play and you love doing what you can do in the game. 2: You enjoy the story and you want to see what happens next. 3: You're bored and have nothing better to do.

These reasons do not change just because the game has suddenly become an MMO. And the concept of achievement awards being used as a sole reason to bring players back and make them keep paying their subscription is also flawed. Players do not need a tally system keeping track of what they have and have not accomplished in order to go about doing things they want to. Having every pet possible in WoW was a vast undertaking, and yet players did it because they wanted to, not because they wanted achievement points. Being able to legitimize your achievements to others is all that the achievement system has brought, and you used to be able to do that by literally showing people what you had accomplished.

The idea that the game world doesn't change is BS. You get new armor, you get new pets, the world may be persistent but your character is not. You grow through your character, you don't grow through the world around you changing.

Seriously, the very notion that you somehow feel unique for completing a single player game that is the same for every single person in the world that plays it, but that you feel less unique when you are an individual in an MMO running around doing what you want, when you want, is absurd.

Kalimdor is still Kalimdor! The airport level doesn't change either! Hell, you could argue the opposite, that single player gaming is a thing of the past because compared to MMO's it offers no real achievements, and all they can do to keep you entertained is recycle the same rehashed story lines and game play. Or you could, you know, go play an MMO where interactions you make with other players does effect the game. It may not effect the game World, but it does effect the game. Hence the lovely ESRB tag: "Game play may change online".

Posted: Nov 30th 2009 5:37PM (Unverified) said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
"It's not harder to create a goal for players to accomplish in an MMO than it is in a single player game."

Nowhere did I make this claim.

"It appears as if the original article was written on the presumption of many players feeling bored within WoW, and that the writer is feeling that achievements are being weighted more and included more because they keep the game interesting, or some nonsense like that. And it is nonsense."

It IS nonsense... because you made it up. My article said nothing like this. My article has nothing to do with achievement systems. It's about how MMOs give the player goals to accomplish, or (to rephrase is and perhaps clarify) how games provide the player with activities that the player should do. That "should" is an impetus provided either by the player realizing what he wants to do within the confines of the game world, or "should" means that the game tells the player that she MUST complete a certain goal in order to advance.

"These reasons do not change just because the game has suddenly become an MMO. "

And nowhere do I suggest that. The way that games present and create goals for players within the context of the game world does change, though, in MMOs.

You're also speaking at a very high level of abstraction--my article was dealing with a more concrete and meaningful conception of goal generation. Of course we all play games because they are fun or they fill time. I'm talking about the in-game goals and progressions that constitute the gameplay.

"The idea that the game world doesn't change is BS. You get new armor, you get new pets, the world may be persistent but your character is not. You grow through your character, you don't grow through the world around you changing."

YOU get new armor. YOU get new pets. YOU grow.

Notice how the world is not mentioned. You do nothing that actually affects the world. In fact, you do very little that affects anyone else. This reduces the meaning of your actions in the world significantly and creates that feeling of "grinding" or being on a treadmill.

Affecting the world is a fundamental and profound way to give meaning to actions. This is a most basic fact about human life. As I said in the article, changing the world is what gives single-player games their stories and makes them enjoyable.

Please read my article again, more carefully, and try to understand the distinctions I draw and their ramifications.
Reply

Featured Stories

Coming soon
Engadget

Engadget

Joystiq

Joystiq

WoW Insider

WoW

TUAW

TUAW