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Reader Comments (18)

Posted: Nov 8th 2009 8:07PM karnisov said

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this is why the sandbox mmo is the best.
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Posted: Nov 8th 2009 8:22PM GenericPerson said

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Maybe so, but sandbox is so difficult to get right. For some reason having an open world to play in as opposed to a 90% scripted one is beyond the technical grasp of many companies.
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Posted: Nov 8th 2009 8:27PM Addfwyn said

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I actually disagree, maybe it's just me but I LIKE railroading in my RPGs. It's why I don't like games like Dragon's Age or Fallout (or any other WRPG) and love JRPGs like Final Fantasy.

My problem with Aion is there didn't seem to be enough railroading, a lot of times I felt kinda stranded in areas without any real guide as to where I was "supposed to be".
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Posted: Nov 8th 2009 9:00PM (Unverified) said

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I think the key is to have just the right amount of railroading.

On one hand, I don't want to be told, "THIS IS WHERE YOU MUST GO NEXT, YOU HAVE NO SAY." But on the other, I don't want to just be left wondering what the hell I'm supposed to be doing and if I'm in the right place. I think it's good that the player has options, but that game somehow tells the player - via quest chains or what have you - what those options are so that they can choose accordingly.
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Posted: Nov 8th 2009 8:35PM Paladuck said

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The competitive nature of MMOs leads people to always choose the path that yields the most experience and reward in the quickest time. So unless you have a true sandbox MMO pretty soon a guide is going to come out about how to power level the fastest anyway.
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Posted: Nov 8th 2009 8:49PM karnisov said

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i think in a good sandbox mmo, there are no levels, only the goals the player chooses, which also in a good sandbox are numerous to choose from. Puzzle Pirates excels at this.
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Posted: Nov 8th 2009 8:49PM Yoh said

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I think there is a time and place for all things.

RPG's work well with railroad story lines.
However, they have one thing that MMORPG's can never have.
Characters.

By which I mean, pre made characters, which have personality, and actually contribute to the story in a productive manner.

MMO's by contrast, cannot have these kinds of characters, as players are the ones who take that position by default, and they are the ones who define the personality of their character, if they even have one.

Any attempts to jar in player made characters into the story, makes them come across as lifeless and dull, without any defining characteristics.

And as such, a story without characters, is very dull indeed.


So in that respect, I'd rather they didn't try, and let me make the decisions.


~Yoh
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Posted: Nov 8th 2009 9:08PM Daelen said

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Railroading or linear gameplay is definitely a killer and yes Aion was on rails. CO is not though, in any area really. Your character isn't a preset, your skills aren't defined by any set rules, their enhancements are yours to choose, the zone you level in is somewhat railroaded but no the area since the world is wide open 3D including the Z axis, all the time and no invisible walls =O

Aion, WAR, GW among others are too much on rails for me. Of course others suffer from rubber banding where from one quest to the other you are crossing the entire zone or worse zones, ala CoX before police scanner missions.

Anyway rails bad, rubber banding bad.
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Posted: Nov 8th 2009 9:11PM Ayenn said

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I believe you can have both sandbox and "railroad" in the same world. I wrote a paper that is also a section of my upcoming Masters Thesis that does describe how this can work. I have posted a version of it on my blog, if you care to take a look at it.

http://wetwyered.com/wordpress/?p=102
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Posted: Nov 9th 2009 2:14AM Nadril said

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I didn't read the paper but I do agree with you. I think an excellent example would be to look at Oblivion. It very much is a mix of a sandbox and a railroad. You have standard quest lines you can go through and an eventual plot you can do but you don't have to ever do that. There is a lot to do to advance aside from that. I really think it's a good way to go.

Personally I think that full sandbox games just are not a very sensible idea from a design perspective. Sure, one can argue that too much of a linear path can get boring and predictable but there is nothing more boring than just sort of standing around with no real guidance. It's fun to explore and look around but from my perspective I really think a strong sense of a path is very important. It doesn't even have to be very defined or the same for everyone.


The other good thing about having some railroads in a sandbox is that it may very much lead you to interesting areas you wouldn't have seen otherwise and most importantly it allows you to create a strong narrative and game because you can sort of balance all of the highs and lows.
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Posted: Nov 8th 2009 10:31PM (Unverified) said

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This is exactly why I won't play Aion. Hopefully Champions will fix this issue with future content.
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Posted: Nov 9th 2009 3:03AM Addfwyn said

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The opposite extreme of too much railroading is a game like EVE.

I love the idea of the depth and sandbox natures of the game, but there is such a lack of...purpose there. There doesn't feel like any real progression to me. I don't degrade the folks who like it but, there just doesn't seem to me to be much in the ways of goals in that game.
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Posted: Nov 9th 2009 3:39AM Jeromai said

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I do wonder where this hatred of railroading stems from. Could it be that folks are finally tired of linearity and have veered in preference towards sandboxes, or is it just an excuse to rationalize away a game you do not like?

I admit, I was quite bitter about the handheld railroading of the newbie experience in WoW for a long time (lvls 1-15 in Barrens *sighs*) until I bit the bullet, became one with QuestHelper and got to see the world open up a little more with the various areas you could go to after that.

But from a game design standpoint, WoW was bringing in people who had never played an MMO before, so it does make sense to coddle them through it, even though I felt patronized as a more experienced gamer. But was railroading the real problem, or the fact that I just didn't enjoy the gameplay that it was building up to?

I complained that the crafting was simplistic and boring, do an action, get an almost guaranteed skill point. The weapons found in the newbie shops were itemized to the point of next upgrade between one quest and the other, and per class, you got the one obvious pick. Ditto armor - 3 types, go get the best your class can wear. Totally brainless, no meaningful choice. But really, should I have expected there to be 5-10 different choices to weigh and pick from in WoW's newbie zone?

I don't see Aion as any different. Lowbie zone = limited choice, with the world's areas opening up more as you progress. I could say the same for City of Heroes and Champions Online, one just has a smaller newbie zone than the other, and more numerous but smaller in size zones.

How about Torchlight? One dungeon, go deeper and deeper. Isn't that linear and railroaded?

If you dislike the level or map design - too closed in, or too much instancing, too few players in the world around you, too -many- players in the world around you, then say so. If it's something else that bugs you, try and nail down the specifics of it.

To me, railroading is a cop-out term unless you truly hate all forms of linear gameplay, including those found in singleplayer games (FPSes, RPGs, adventure) as well.
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Posted: Nov 9th 2009 3:41AM TOYBOXX said

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I personally would rather have an open-world feel to my MMO or RPG, especially if I'm subscribing monthly to the game. Options is welcomed and highly encouraged to get the best bang for my buck. Without it I might as well purchase a Final Fantasy game. It'll be cheaper in the long run.
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Posted: Nov 9th 2009 7:30AM (Unverified) said

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WoW is also a very railroaded game: no matter wich faction or class you choose you end up at the same place, doing the same things. At least it has some side tracks along the way which give a slightly different experience
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Posted: Nov 9th 2009 9:12AM (Unverified) said

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The more options, the more fun I have.

I love WoW, don't get me wrong, but my first experience with it was not the best. After playing some truly open games before going to WoW, I saw right away all these little tied together annoyances when I started a Draenai Shaman.

I love Draenai Shamans too, but to this day I cringe at the thought of starting a new one and being forced to do all those lame quests just to get my totems.

The biggest thing however, is that my craft level is tied to my character level. "Sorry, you can't craft anymore till you go level" What?....(growls, then pouts)
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Posted: Nov 9th 2009 9:42AM deluxe2000 said

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Its not the landmass that counts - its content. You can have a world like Vanguard or Darkfall offers, but if all you're doing is running from empty mob camp to empty quest hub, whats the point? Might as well play an offline RPG. Can't speak for CO, but Aion offers a perfect balance between varied content and world size.
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Posted: Nov 9th 2009 11:52AM Heraclea said

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The problem is not so much railroading as it is lack of multiple paths. Back when I played WoW, a low level human Alliance character had the choice of levelling up in Ellwyn Forest or the Dwarf zone outside Ironforge whose name now escapes me --- or making a hazardous hike and levelling in the Night Elf or Draenei lowbie areas. If you had friends working through those levels there, might be worth it, Now the thrill of a Wetlands trek at level 5 is not even needed to do that any more.

By contrast, in Champions Online, the choice offered between the desert and Canada to level 5 characters was entirely illusory. You'd run out of content in one place and have to finish the other before being strong enough to move on.
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