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Reader Comments (27)

Posted: Aug 17th 2009 8:55PM DrewIW said

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The rumours regarding this banning spread pretty fast, but I don't think anyone anticipated something on this scale.

Awesome stuff CCP, keep it up!

Posted: Aug 18th 2009 1:43AM (Unverified) said

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@rmt=badgame.

you do have a lot of good points. But at the end I think you pissed most people off by being a dick.

there are fun grinds and there are grinds that make you want to pull your hair out.

grind just means it takes an extended time to do something.

MMOs are becoming more casual, and as such the grinds are becoming less tedious and more engaging (for the successful MMOs at least).

The original ones had things like perma-death, looting other players, etc..

That stuff doesn't fly anymore. I think what rmt=badgame was trying to point out is that unfun grinds are quickly becoming the way of the past.

W. Graves, you point out that w/o grinding unfun things the rewards dont mean as much. I disagree. Can't you still get better rewards simply for playing the game longer even if the game is fun? The value of the reward should be based on how good it is, not how much tedium you can endure to receive it.

An example of gameplay above rewards can be found in the fact that City of Heroes had 25% more players 6 months after it launched than it did after they released inventions/salvage/crafting. Back when everybody just got the same enhancements from the NPC store & could afford to buy them as they leveled up; just through doing the story arcs. No major rewards had a higher subscriber base, it also had zero gold farmers & spammers.

With the introduction of inventions/salvage/crafting came the hordes of gold farmers & spammers. As the game introduced a part of the game players wanted to participate in; but put it at a distance which would make it impossible to w/o repetitive (boring) grinding/farming.
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Posted: Aug 17th 2009 9:07PM (Unverified) said

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I love it whenever game companies go on the offensive against RMT. It really is quite laughable.

The reason people engage in RMT is because the game makes them do unfun stuff in order to get to fun stuff (i.e. grind). If people feel the need to RMT in your game, it means that at least a portion of it sucks, because it isn't fun enough to be played for it's own merits, and instead must be slogged through to get to the fun part.

No one really wants to spend extra money on top of a sub fee to play a game, but they do so because it removes barriers to fun erected by the dev team. These barriers are bad design.

Instead of designing a system to rid your game of illegal RMT, how's about designing a game that is fucking fun to play from start to finish, thereby doing away with the necessity of RMT. I know, what a concept!

But no, these guys (not just CCP but mmo devs across the board) will continue churning out boring as level-treadmills, gear grinds, and shitty time-sinks designed to keep people subscribing and chasing the carrot. And as long as they do, people will continue to use any means to bypass it.

The fact that they've put their own RMT into the game is pure greed. It's ok to bypass boring-ass mechanics as long as you pay us, but not anyone else. Newsflash, if I like part of the game, but find other parts annoying enough to want to RMT around, I'd much rather pay a third party for the avoidance services, rather than the dumbass devs who designed the annoyance.

Posted: Aug 17th 2009 9:23PM (Unverified) said

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Heres the too long, didn't read version for the rest of us.

"Blah blah blah blah blah blah... I hate playing mmo's... blah blah blah... I want to be spoon fed everything...blah blah blah"

Get a grip.

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Posted: Aug 17th 2009 9:38PM Wgraves said

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ummm... what?

if you want fun beginning to end, play an FPS, MMOs with persistent worlds use grind and "unfun" things to create value in the items you purchase, use, and lose.

If I got a faction fitted Machariel every time I lost one, what would stop me from rampaging wildly about, and making a general ass of myself? On the other hand, when I KILL a faction fitted Machariel, it is far more satisfying to know I just destroyed a hundred hours worth of effort, rather than just reset some guy back to his spawn point.

The greater the risk, the greater the satisfaction.
In eve, you risk assets
In eve, you gain assets through grind
in eve, grind is time
risk = assets = grinding = time

Thus "The greater the (risk, assets, grinding, time), the greater the satisfaction."

Sorry for the minor rant, and I cant believe I just argued FOR grind, but in eve with a completely open economy, there has to be a base unit, and that IS time.
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Posted: Aug 17th 2009 9:29PM (Unverified) said

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@ohnoes: Well, you got the I hate mmo's part right, as far as spoon fed, not even close. Typical of the short attention span crowd. They can't read stuff longer than 140 characters, and what they can read, they often can't comprehend.

Get an education.

Posted: Aug 17th 2009 9:44PM DrewIW said

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If you actually read the dev blog you can see the tangible effects of Unholy Rage beyond 3rd party RMT.

Server load decreased dramatically, and the market for many farmable items has returned to sustainable, realistic levels. The tritanium price crash of June 22nd is not a coincidence, and it's finally opened up the market for the other low-end ores.

Since the Apocrypha expansion, over 9000 accounts have been banned, and there have been tangible in-game effects for those of us who choose not to cheat and break the EULA. Setting aside the philosophy of game design, CCP have shown that they are willing to remove a large number of -paying- subscribers in order to stand by their principles and improve the game experience for legitmate players.

Removing ~2% of their subscription base is a hard decision, but you'll be hard pressed to find many EVE players who think it was the -wrong- decision.
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Posted: Aug 18th 2009 1:48AM (Unverified) said

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@DrewIW

I doubt CCP is really crying over the loss of 6200 accounts. A large majority of gold farmers use stolen credit cards to buy game keys & subs. CCP isn't making money on that once the stolen cards get reported.
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Posted: Aug 17th 2009 9:50PM (Unverified) said

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Oof. Trying to inflate your ego by insulting intelligence.

Nice touch, must work wonders for you.

If you hate them so much, quit wasting your time moaning about it and find something else to enjoy. You must be able to see that the current state of mmo's will never change fundamentally and that the carrot on a stick style gameplay is here to stay as it promotes longevity to increase income.

Using RMT is just an example of desperate people wanting to be spoon fed and shows nothing of the game being 'bad'. You are exaggerating due to the massive chip on your shoulder. Afterall, the majority of people playing whichever game seem to enjoy playing it the way it is. If they were truly as bad as you make out they wouldn't stay running.

Every game with a form of currency in one way or another will have a RMT at some point. Currency, in addition to levels and gear, is just a simple form of progression that has worked for years and I sincerely doubt it will be phased out any time soon.

Posted: Aug 17th 2009 9:51PM (Unverified) said

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@W. Graves:

I understand what you're saying, and it makes sense to a point. However, I think it's a bit telling that you surprised yourself arguing in favor of grinding (something that, at least on some level, you don't enjoy).

I came to a similar realization after playing many mmo's over the years, and that little epiphany (that I hated grinding) basically clued me in to the fact that all mmo's basically suck because they're digital hamster wheels. A pity, because I love the virtual world aspects and am hopeful that one will come along one day that does away with grind.

Working hard and paying your dues is for your professional life, therefore I don't really feel the need (or have the time) to invest in artificial accomplishments during a relaxation activity.

Posted: Aug 17th 2009 9:59PM (Unverified) said

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@vidarr:

Nothing to do with ego at all, simply stating my preferences and laughing at the hypocrisy of dev teams that try to shut down the big bad evil RMT with their left hand while designing their own version of it with their right hand.

As far as exaggerating, not sure how you come by that analysis. Again, just stating my preferences and the reason why I feel the genre is a waste of potential.

Clearly a lot of people use RMT, otherwise these companies wouldn't be falling all over themselves to get a piece of the action. You state that the majority of people enjoy playing them as they are, but in fact that's a generalization, because you have no way of knowing how many of that 'majority' are RMT'ing for their enjoyment.

Nice try at insulting me though, a little weak on the follow through.

Posted: Aug 17th 2009 10:24PM (Unverified) said

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I think you are clinging on to a genre that you have no hope of enjoying, and as such wasting your time with it. You seem to be looking for a new genre, a more permanent style of multiplayer gaming currently found in single player games but adapted and expanded for a larger playerbase. While there may be advances in developing this style of game the current mmo will stick around. The mmo as it is has become a genre in itself, and the 'carrot on a stick' progression is an intrinsic part of it and I doubt it will ever change.

"You state that the majority of people enjoy playing them as they are, but in fact that's a generalization, because you have no way of knowing how many of that 'majority' are RMT'ing for their enjoyment."

Thats a generalisation also. My opinion based on what I have seen is that RMT is in the minority. That could be a large minority when looking at the total across ALL games, but is still a minority none the less. RMT is not a factor on how good or bad a game is. Like I said, games with currency will have RMT. RMT sellers will try to infiltrate every mmo they can whether or not it will prove popular in that specific game. Also consider that people throwing money away on RMT probably have more to their name and as such more than likely to spend huge amounts in one go. Again, a generalisation as we don't know true figures, but could account for less people buying but more money spent.

PLEX is relatively new, but people have been selling timecodes in game legally for ages. I hate RMT but putting it into the hands of the developers is much better than allowing some piece of trash owning a sweatshop on the other side of the world to profit from something that does not belong to them is much, much better.

And if you think I was trying to insult you, you must have a complex.
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Posted: Aug 17th 2009 10:07PM (Unverified) said

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Maybe worth giving this a try now, was always curious about what the game had to offer...

Posted: Aug 17th 2009 10:13PM (Unverified) said

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@DrewIW:

I don't doubt that it's had tangible effects. We both know it's a losing battle though, as people will find a new way every time an old way becomes closed to them.

While I would like to share your viewpoint and respect CCP for banning paying customers in order to stick to their principles, the reality is that they stand to make MORE money by banning people that engage in RMT, and I can guarantee you that they've crunched the numbers on this and aren't doing it out of a sense of altruism, fairness, or 'doing the right thing.' They are a business, and their goal is make money, period. They may say they're doing it to help legitimate players, and you may believe them, but hey that's the value of good PR and a slick-talking marketing department I guess.

Do you really think that these large gold farming operations are going to be put off of their business model by losing a few accounts? No, they won't. What they will do is buy another box/retail key and resume their activities, and CCP gets paid additional money for that key that they would not have been paid had they not banned people.

Posted: Aug 18th 2009 12:06AM DrewIW said

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"Do you really think that these large gold farming operations are going to be put off of their business model by losing a few accounts?"

Actually, they're being put out of business by a combination of losing accounts, and PLEXs. If you absolutely -must- buy ISK, it's significantly cheaper (and safer) to buy a PLEX.

Standing by principles and making money aren't exclusive, as you seem to think. Unholy Rage and PLEXs have had the double effect of improving the game for non-cheating players, and making CCP money.
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Posted: Aug 18th 2009 12:16AM DrewIW said

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You're right.

Performance enhancements, the decrease in spam, and the resettling of markets are nothing but "good PR and a slick-talking marketing department".

Before you came along, I had no idea that the marketing department affected gameplay. Oh how wrong I have been!

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Posted: Aug 17th 2009 10:36PM GaaaaaH said

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Holy expletives!

That is a large effect on that system.

Posted: Aug 17th 2009 11:09PM (Unverified) said

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What are you guys even babbling about right now...... One way or the other EVE ISK RMT died about 2 months ago anyways. The price skyrocketed on every farming site on the internet. It went up to 3 fold before settling at 2 fold, them banning accounts is really only hurting them to be honest..... Ive bought alot of ISK through RMT because I want pvp and I want to blow up peoples shit but I dont want to grind to get it there. That doesn't mean I don't worry about losing my 200 million battleship it just means I have come to my senses and realized hey there is something beyond the LCD screen. I did the whole mission salavaging grind thing but its hours and hours of blow up blow up dont die dont die salvage salvage blow up blow dont die... Its just mindnumbingly boring and after you have grinded enough you'll be lucky if you don't say to yourself what am I even doing right now... And quit. Anyways now im blabbering but not farmed ISK is more expensive then GTCs I honestly Couldnt see the farmers continuing to make any kind a of decent money how they are doing it now that will push stock up and prices down. Then Ill start buying ISK again but till then the game is pretty much ruined for me and alot of other people I'm sure which is not all that bad bc most people come back but with the slurry of new MMOs coming out CCP is treading down a very slippery slope.... Mark my words... Muwahahahaah

Posted: Aug 17th 2009 11:26PM Dblade said

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RMT=badgame is right. The problem really is time versus cost, and by using PLEX CCP is subtlety acknowledging it.

There is a continuum with MMO earning based on real life time to real life money. The longer and harder it takes in real life time to earn ingame money, the more attractive it is for many people to spend real life money instead. If it takes a month of farming to earn ten million ISK, and you can buy it for $50 bucks, the $50 will always win, because its only 5 hours spent in terms of $10 an hour real life wage.

The reason why it takes the average person a month usually is because the devs include it purposefully to extend playtime. Every player can level pretty easily, but very few are skilled at making serious money in games. Devs count on that in many games to slow advancement and force players to grind.

Especially with EVE, where you constantly have to grind economics to do the actual fun stuff, like PvP. So he's right, the inclusion of a grind really makes RMT attractive, and for quite a few people, it's easier to pay so much to get to the fun stuff faster. The way to solve it is not by banning rmt, but by removing the grind to enable people to play more.

Posted: Aug 18th 2009 10:54AM Thac0 said

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Thank you I agree 100% I've been saying this forever and I'm glad I'm not alone. As soon as they remove the grind from games there will be no need for RMT. RMT is a consequence of game companies adding grind to be greedy then being mad when players find a way around it.
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