| Mail |
You might also like: WoW Insider, Joystiq, and more

Reader Comments (25)

Posted: Aug 13th 2009 3:34PM (Unverified) said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
Years ago Asherons Call had the best system. You had predefined templates if you wanted (classes) or you could pick your own skills and make what you wanted.

You gained XP like a class based system through killing mobs and completing quest but then you could spend that XP on raising your skills how you wanted any way you wanted.

It was the best of both worlds.

Posted: Aug 13th 2009 4:37PM (Unverified) said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
I forget if any computer rpgs did it, but i seem to remember games that when you leveled or gained xp, you could put raise what skill you wanted or put points into whatever. Granted, this would be a min-maxers dream, and probably ostracize anyone who didn't do as they did.
Reply

Posted: Aug 14th 2009 12:10AM (Unverified) said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
yeah thats the problem with any skill based system...it ends up one or two uber templates
Reply

Posted: Aug 13th 2009 3:40PM wufiavelli said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
I total agree the passive system is the way to go. The only other option i can think of is daily cap like siege perilous, and that annoys a lot of players.

Darkfall also though suffers from a bad level cap system (if one exist at all). Eve online is able to cap skills by the use of ships. Darkfall does not have ships so either needs a cap or find a means of cap via inventory slots.

As much as power gamers hate it, the passive system is the best way to go.

Another interesting option for the active system would be the use of social gathering and grind together. Kind of make it an IRC grind house where people can chat and have fun as their skill gains.

Posted: Aug 13th 2009 3:40PM Miffy said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
EVE Online takes too long to get anywhere, it's no fun having to train things like learning skills and spend months training basic skills before you're actually useful at anything. I also don't like how Veterans will always be way ahead of new players and it's a real turn off to new players.

They need to cap the Skill points you can have and then let you drops skills and make training faster. That way newer players will feel much happier and it lets you get into the action quicker. Though still having a penalty of having to drop skills if you want to change what you wanna do. So you'll have to put much more thought into your training.


My personal fave was SWG but I could see a great mix between EVE and SWG like I said above because that would take out the grind alot of people hate so you can just focus on the content and quests.

Posted: Aug 14th 2009 1:10AM SgtBaker said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
The thing with EVE is that is doesn't matter if the Veterans are always ahead.

In a recent 1v1 Tech1 Frigate tournament, my 15M SP character took out two 70M SP characters on his way to the finals. SP is not everything when you fly T1 stuff.

The amount of skillpoints doesn't equal instant IWIN button in EVE, it equals versatility on the battlefield and the vets with 70M SP are probably more able to fill any given fleet role but that doesn't diminish your value even if you're just able to fill the fleet tackler role.

New players often fall into complaining about how they can "never catch up" - but that's not the point, you're useful as soon as you're figured a) how to bankroll your PvP and b) how to fly your first T1 Frig fitted with tackle.
Reply

Posted: Aug 13th 2009 3:41PM Muddleglum said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
Most good level/class based games do it all anyway.

Remember for example, in EQ you had to kinda grind out each school of magic with low level/cost spells so you could cast spells without fizzling everything heh!

That went for everything weapons, swimming, languages ect. It's not like leveling gave you everything you still had to work on things to be able to use them.

Posted: Aug 14th 2009 11:59PM fzzzt said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
Once again, EQ got it right.

Not perfect, but at the very least on the right track. You had to both level your character up as well as practice your skills...if the skills mattered slightly more and scaled better, it would be almost perfect.
Reply

Posted: Aug 13th 2009 3:52PM (Unverified) said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
I hate eve online's skill system. Granted the variety is quite elaborate but the fact that nothing you actually do as your character effects your growth, bugs me to no end. It just makes it feel more like you are directly giving them money to advance your character, since the only thing that determines (the majority of) your stats is the amount of months you have on your account. No way to ever catch up to players that have been playing for years, even if all they do is log in once a week to update their skill queue.

I'm more a fan of "point-buy" based systems, where every one has a certain amount of points to distribute as they see fit. sure it leads to min-maxing/build of the month, but it at least puts everyone on even ground. It puts everyone on even ground and what they've done in the game (gear they've gotten, unlocks, ect.) determines their abilities rather than how long they've played.

Posted: Aug 13th 2009 4:00PM (Unverified) said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
The "problem" with EVE's skill system is that it is very unrewarding being time based. Just click...and wait.

Posted: Aug 13th 2009 4:17PM (Unverified) said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
You just summed up EVE's game play, not just the skill system: "Click & wait".

Back on topic:

I prefer a skill-based system over a level-based system, and specifically I prefer a "learn-by-doing" implementation. Darkfall manages to fall flat on its face, but it's failure should not damn all similar systems.

Ryzom has a fairly nice system in place: you earn skill points in some broad categories (combat, magic, harvesting, crafting) by engaging in activities that fall under one of the categories, and then you spend those skill points on specific aspects of those generalize categories that you want to improve.
Reply

Posted: Aug 13th 2009 5:26PM (Unverified) said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
Fallen Earth is a little rough around the edges but its classless system is awesome.

Posted: Aug 13th 2009 6:32PM (Unverified) said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
EVE haters in not liking EVE nonshocker.

I love the skill system, the "cant catch up" myth has been ripped to shreds so many times, specialise and "catch up" in about a month. What other game lets a newbie player take part in endgame fights meaningfully?

Hell, what other game actually HAS endgame fights and not just some boring monster bash?

That being said, something like an EVE/SWG capped skill hybrid would be great, hopefully the new star wars game will do something like this with a single server and territory based pvp... Im such a dreamer.

Posted: Aug 13th 2009 6:57PM (Unverified) said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
I like the Morrowind system, you do something a lot, you get better at it.

Posted: Aug 13th 2009 7:10PM spamero said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
You guys dislike Eve system, cause you seem to don't understand it.

I was very skeptical about it myself. It may seem like you are 'doing nothing' when you skills are being learned but in fact you are doing everything in game.

I can go do missions, hang out for hours in pvp, shoot poses, trade, spam local, manage contracts, check markets, manage corp or even don't log at all and I am still progressing.

In other games you are either grinding/questing and you must be logged in or you are not advancing.

The Eve system actually lets you pick up your ingame activities (let it be socializing, trading, pvping, missioning, manufacturing, mining.. to name the most popular) and allows you make the decision on how you want to spend your time in game. A true sandbox indeed.

You have a point about the veterans when it comes to pvp, but what makes a true veteran is not how many skill points he has, but the the pvp experience.

Posted: Aug 13th 2009 7:47PM Yoh said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
Ahhhh, no.
Coming from a person who has played EVE extensively, I do understand it, and it has a very boring skill/progression system. Hands down, the slowest, and almost the most tedious I have even seen in a game. (next to maple story)

Also, we're not talking about content. What you do in game to pass the time is irrelevant.

Is there value to a passive system? Of course.
Can you have no levels or classes and still making the game fun to progress? Yes.
But is EVE a good representation of this?.... not by a long shot.

Good ideas, horrible implementation.

~Yoh

Posted: Aug 13th 2009 8:03PM Yoh said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
Now as far as progression systems go, I'm more in favor of active skill-based systems. Where it's not about who has been playing the longest, or who has the better uber sword of uberness, but rather your own, personal skill.

Like Guild Wars for example, it had a level progression system (which it could have done without), but it only got you to level 20, but even still, the main focus was on what skills you had, and how you used them.

Now it restricted you to only 8 skills at a time, which was good at forcing you to think about what to use, however I found it to be too restricting in conjunction with it's class system, but overall still far more liberating then any other MMO's I've ever played.
It also added a nice collecting aspect to the game.


Now if the was a hybrid between GW and EVE, where your skills progress rather then having levels, and where there is no classes predefined, and it's all about what skills you have and how you use them. I could get right into that.
So at the end of the day, I won because, and only because, I'm a better player, and that's it.

(however, such a system would have to be hands on to grab attention)

Well, that's how I'd like it anyhow.

~Yoh

Posted: Aug 13th 2009 8:04PM Graill440 said

  • 1 heart
  • Report
The thing with real life verse "make believe" is the mindset. When we escape, and a few of us do from time to time, we have certain demands in that world we enter, if they arent met, we leave, never to return, and in the process we affect someones paycheck.

I have very high standards, nothing out currently is worth disapeering into, i do play dawn of discovery (pc) pretty decent game. But i digress.

There doesnt need to be a point system, there doesnt need to be a level system, there doesnt need to be an anything thing system, devs still can fathom this. No devs you cant use my ideas in any way shape or form, stop emailing me.

The game need only have these things to be successful, a robust crafting system that makes you think, the more creative you are, the more complicated it is, the better the product, i could go into paragraphs worth of detail but i refuse to.

As for the avatar...give the player whatever they want dependant on the genre the devs are shooting for, again, soooo simple, again no touchy my ideas, but i will elaborate a bit.

Say player A starts this new game, over time, months or years they find by luck or through exploration or using their wits or through pillaging someone elses domicile (if allowed) the means to "do something new " we will call it. Over this undetermined time player A finds they can "do" alot of things, how well player A can "do" anything is really up to them in real life. Player A may have several things they can "do" that require hand and eye coordination, and just maybe they are good at it. And maybe not so much with other things, but they have them and can use them just the same.

Player B started yesterday, got lucky, found something they could "do" too

Player A is walking in the woods or desert or whatever and sees a great prized gornut, sadly Player B has just happened by also and wants it, both players are evenly matched because of the particular system in place, and they know it, they also know they dont know a single thing about the other as they stand and drool, eyes glassy as they stare at the gornut on the ground between them, then a twitch.........

Why devs cant reason out the good stuff is easy to figure out. The more education you get the more out of touch with the simple things you get, like enjoyment. For those that want proof go to any developer with master level or higher credentials or a PHD and try to strike up a convo on something that the PHD is not interested in or one that requires common sense. Higher education also elevates the mind sadly, you will find they can make the game, they just cant make it fun.

Posted: Aug 14th 2009 12:30AM (Unverified) said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
The articles isn't about how uber EVE's skill system fanbois, get over it. My EVE account is active right now, weee for me. There is nothing fun, difficult or complex about it. I decide what skill I want. click on it and wait for it to finish many days later.

Posted: Aug 14th 2009 1:17AM SgtBaker said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
You're wrong, it's uber. :-)

However you're dead-right about the rest, there's nothing complicated or difficult about it.

There are some usability issues with the skill interface (there are LOADS of usability issues with the EVE interface) - I believe the people who think it's "complex" would benefit a lot if they could select a ship + fitting and then just see what skills they need to train in order to fly it.

There are 3rd party programs that do it (EVEMon being one of the best) and the in-game Certificate system tried to do this to a certain extent, but misses the target at the moment.
Reply

Featured Stories

Engadget

Engadget

Joystiq

Joystiq

WoW Insider

WoW

TUAW

TUAW