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Reader Comments (17)

Posted: Jul 22nd 2009 4:37PM (Unverified) said

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I've been thinking along these lines for a while, that MMO design is traditionally just a really big minigame. I usually use that analogy to value minigames, rather than devalue games in general.

That said, sandbox, as it is often implemented, is just as bad. You either get a set minigame with newbies and pawns, or you get chaos. Usually a mix of the two, and it sad, and its not inherently superior to a series of minigames.

A much better idea would be to thin the appearance of quest repetition by procedural generation. At the very least you could change the names involved, and move it around in a give adventure zone. Ideally you could do enough mad libbing and mixing and matching that the fact that you're doing the "same" quest becomes largely irrelevant. When connections between quests/storyline gets to be procedurally generated, then this malady of MMO storytelling will be gone forever.

BUT it requires an investment, namely, a lot of experimentation and tweaking by first adopters, and convincing investors that his malady of MMO storytelling is an issue, despite WoWing proof of the contrary is a hard sell.
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Posted: Jul 22nd 2009 4:37PM ultimateq said

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Very good question. Ripe for discussion. Unfortunately I can't really think of anything to say about it. Because you summed it up pretty nicely, and I've pretty much always felt the same way.
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Posted: Jul 22nd 2009 4:59PM Graill440 said

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"Agency" found a new way to use that word did we? (grin)

Until the developers, publishers, and whomever else has their hands in the cookie jar dont worry about money, nothing will change.

MMO's will continue to be made fast, cheaply, with the smallest team possible and least amount of interaction and maintenence time needed.

Imagine an MMO where every quest, once completed was gone, except for say hunting , fishing, resource gathering etc. Once gone a new quest with different triggers in a different area would appear. I magine raids done the correct way, in which they would be accessible to all and actually fun instead of the business orientated garbage they are now, rote action pos's.

Raids in which any number of ways could be used to complete it, of course the ignorant spazzing raid guides would not have a job then and would need a new way to get people back in their lives.

Once a raid is completed, its over, next boss setup in some different area for some other reason. But that is to much work for lazy developers hard pressed to make cash for the investors and the publisher. Do it fast, do it simple, do it the cheapest way, and above all, do it with the least interaction needed.

Any MMO that takes rote action to complete is easy, it takes less than educated people to complete actions over and over and over, and yet those that do this have the audacity to call themselves leaders, a joke unto itself. Once MMO's are dynamic, constantly changing, having situations that are so fluid and different everytime and requiring actual thought to complete, those that play MMO's will have a stigma about them, and those that develop them the same way will have that special place in gamer hell waiting for them.
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Posted: Jul 22nd 2009 7:10PM mysecretid said

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Perhaps a little too ready to call devs "lazy" there, I think ...

These quests and set pieces take time, and a number of people (writers, artists, animators, programmers, et cetera) to set up and implement, even if they're basic, or using some recycled assets.

To suggest otherwise implies a limited understanding of how things actually work "behind the scenes".

To have quality, bug-free quests, raids, and so forth appear once, resolve, and disappear from a game would do a lot for the sense of "realism", or immersion, in a game world -- but right now, such a policy would mean that MMORPGs would be discarding content faster than it could be replaced.

Some developers are making headway with procedurally-generated content (such as explorable planet surfaces generated randomly on-demand in Star Trek Online), but this procgen technology is still fairly new, and not far enough along to do all the kinds of things being asked for in this thread.

Right now, most _significant_ game content still has to be "hand-crafted", vetted, and implemented over time, by multiple hands.

Until the tech allows the creation and release quality one-off content faster than players can burn through it all and ask "What's next, today?", true once-and-done content will remain a ways off.

Lazy has nothing to do with it, in the majority of cases.
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Posted: Jul 23rd 2009 4:45AM Graill440 said

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Lazy fits perfectly, i DO know what happens behind the scenes, I HAVE fired the lazy pos's playing minesweeper (simple things entertain, believe me) when they should be programming, I KNOW what and how many breaks and excuses "folks like these" make and take, I know they falsify QDR's (they do after about the 80th one in a week), etc, etc ad nauseum. I am also retired at 46, with a nice pension because of my prior job of zero defect enforcement with "those lazy folks". and yes Georgia, i was hated.

And no, they arent >ALL< lazy but the majority are, and i will stereotype them till proven otherwise, and with the current markets track record it will be a long time before that happens.

How is that work thing treating you by the way?
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Posted: Jul 23rd 2009 5:18AM Dblade said

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Graill, that's not laziness.

I mean, your average server population is what, 10-20k people? How on earth can you make unique repeatable, one-time event quests that even a fraction of them can play? How can you make dynamic, constantly changing ones?

If you make a quest to wipe out the bears on launch day so that the woodcutters can harvest timber, I can tell you right now in 3 days those bears will be dead, never to return. Players consume content way too fast to do it that way. You make your dynamic, endgame bosses and they will be beaten in a month, and you'll need to reinvent the wheel faster than your dev staff can handle it.

That's the problem with agency, people underestimate how fast people can consume content. People often leveled jobs to cap in FFXI within weeks of their introduction-if only so many people could level a specific job you'd see the job quickly be denied to people and needing a new one.
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Posted: Jul 29th 2009 10:30AM mysecretid said

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@Dblade

What made Graill's reply so utterly hilarious is that he was so busy ranting he forgot to speak to the actual point.

As you suggest, we don't yet have the tech conceived or perfected to help even the most dedicated, non-lazy MMORPG developers on Earth create one-use disposable game content on the scale which would be required for an ongoing, full-feature MMORPG as we now know them.

There's some procedural-generation stuff out there (like the Genesis engine for making random planets on-the-fly in the upcoming Star Trek Online) but the tech is still in its infancy.

You could have people making content in shifts, around the clock, and you'd still be "throwing away" one-off content used up by players faster than you could replace it.

Maybe it'll change someday ... but not someday soon.

That was my point.

Thanks for getting it, Dblade! :-)
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Posted: Jul 22nd 2009 5:28PM (Unverified) said

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Ummm...that's hardly a "new" useage of the word.

a·gen·cy

NOUN:
pl. a·gen·cies
1. The condition of being in action; operation.
2. The means or mode of acting; instrumentality.
3. A business or service authorized to act for others: an employment agency.
4. An administrative division of a government or international body.
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Posted: Jul 22nd 2009 6:20PM Ghede said

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Well, there are some MMO's that have tried that. Mainly of the sandbox variety. Although most do away with quests altogether. People often make a big stink about MMO's lacking choice or permanant consequences, but they are really talking about theme-park MMO's. If you count MUDs as MMO's there are a ton of those too, with quests made and guided by volunteer.

It's a pity most sandbox MMO's try too hard for realism in game mechanics. Most of the ones I've seen wind up like Wurm3D, where it takes you ten minutes of resource gathering and crafting to make a worthless clay pot, with a chance of failing and damaging if not destroying your materials every step of the way. It's the only game I've seen where it is possible to fail based on stats and chance in every activity.

At least, the last time I checked that was the case. It might have made some changes since it went completely P2P.

Anyone have any sandbox MMO's that don't stray too far into the frustrating realism/exploitable game mechanics area?
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Posted: Jul 22nd 2009 6:22PM Ghede said

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Sorry, it's wurm online, not wurm3d, don't know what I confused it with.
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Posted: Jul 22nd 2009 6:28PM Ghede said

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Also, I guess it either is no longer, or never was, completely P2P. Huh. Either it didn't work when they tried it, or they never tried it and I misinterpreted something.
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Posted: Jul 22nd 2009 6:59PM Joystiq Login Bugs SUCK said

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Oh gosh no, Laila should never be rescued, in fact it is demanded and expected that all players should release the annoying little hobbit and then laugh with evil glee as the rats, wrights and barghest tear strips out of her.

Some persistance (agency) in an MMO is a good thing, say, an NPC recognising you have done a quest and greeting you differently but it can always go further. Taking our little hobbit as an example, once you have rescued her how hard is it for the game to not render her for you? After all it knows you are no longer eligable for the quest, a little byte extra and it knows if you did it or not... if not then by all means draw a rotten corpse on the ground too.
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Posted: Jul 23rd 2009 3:11AM (Unverified) said

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Obviously, if we want the world to change from every action, we either provide an ineffably huge scripted quest system, or we generate them on the fly, based on "demand". For example, if there are too many bears in the forest, the woodcutters won't be able to cut down trees, therefore there will be someone who will be willing to pay us to kill a few bears.
This system sounds great, but there are a few problems with it:
- We need to create a very complex system to be able to calculate the demand.
- The quests can become deprecated.
- It's very hard to find the balance to have quests for everyone, especially because the number of players are fluctuating in the different areas.
- The story will became shallow, because this system does not support chain quests.

Obviously, this system has a lot of advantages over the current scripted stuff, but I won't even try to make a list of them. I just wanted to add my two penny..
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Posted: Jul 23rd 2009 5:13AM (Unverified) said

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The notion of cyclical events might have some application here - i.e. the ancient notion that seasons, years, ages run through a looping sequence rather than in a straight progression.

I've thought for a while that MMO's should have a structured cycle of world-changing events. The ascendancy of one faction could contain the ingredients for its downfall and replacement by the next, so at different times of the year areas would be dangerous where previously they were friendly, then switch back as the players "saved the world".

Or you could cycle through a primacy of bosses. One boss is in power, and the world suffers until (probably multiple) raids take it down, but this opens up the field for the next, and the first boss in the meantime recuperates and makes a comeback later in the year, etc.
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Posted: Jul 23rd 2009 9:30AM (Unverified) said

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Cyclical is definitely part of the puzzle. Good call.

The biggest part is still procedural generation, creating a program to create content and feeding it resources (maps, textures, mobs, ai subroutines, etc). As long as we're talking about scripted instances, we can only create the illusion of agency, not actually allowing players to change the game world, as they so often clamor for. And we can do it without being "sandbox."
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Posted: Jul 23rd 2009 10:14AM Nef said

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Niche. To have an MMO that allows this 'agency' it would certainly wind up a niche title. I'm sure it's not easy to get a producer on a niche title, and have it stay the way it's envisioned. ("You'll get a steady stream of -- small -- profit." compared to "It's gonna be the next WoW!!!$$" type MMO's)

To have this 'agency', I think, the game would have to:

-Have a single server (shard)

-Have plenty of land, preferably changeable (you don't want to have a small number of caves/forts/dungeons/what-not so players will always just crowd the same areas, hoping to pop the unique)

-Have Dev's working daily on small, short projects that can be injected into the game on a regular (even daily) basis

-Have tools that allow for quick and easy modification of the game world and monsters -- not every unique monster has to be totally new and original, but just swapping skin tones and changing the name from the Demon Lord D'Larxx to Demon Lord E'Urral that has a slightly redder appearance isn't that unique or special -- might as well just respawn the same thing again

-Regular live events -- these don't have to be major, perhaps just an army of orcs raiding villages and lead by a dev controlled shaman/chief, with more devs leading smaller bands -- having the tools to do such events would be wonderful

I really think such a game could work well; it's just a matter of designing it to be run a certain way and having the tools to do so.
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Posted: Aug 3rd 2009 2:56AM (Unverified) said

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Modularity in design would be a big help as well, allowing for quick and easy game modification as Nef suggested, while also helping to prevent procedural generation from becoming repetetive aka privateer 1& 2 mission generation for want of an MMO example.
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