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Posted: Jun 29th 2009 11:36AM Thac0 said

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Meh, I commend CCP on the lore they do with EvE I honestly think thats the most appealing part of their game the rest of it is not for me though. I'll come back when they have Avatars and things to do besides be a ship flying through motor oil.

Posted: Jun 29th 2009 2:55PM (Unverified) said

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EVE has the most incredible video game systems ever created for an MMO.

It is to MMOs what Civilizations is to strategy games.

That is, it's hyper-intelligently designed, but, still not the best, for several reasons.

The developers make no attempt to welcome new players to the game. You are folded in as a newb, you literally will be a newb for 2 consecutive years in this game... no matter how much of your day you spend playing it, the minimum amount of time required to fly higher grade ships with technology that's good enough to matter against the majority of the population in PVP is around 2 years.

I don't have 2 years to play a single game, and be a noob the entire time. I already spent 18 months in EVE learning this fact. No matter the optimization, or the guides you read, or the friends you make, or the ISK you have (I've got over a billion that I can't even spend), you will be just another blip in the blob.

Furthermore, blob warfare will not go away. The game is designed such that there is no limitation to the number of people who can fight on the same side. The Caldari winning the militia wars wasn't a factor of Caldari players working hard and having good teamwork. It was a factor of there just being more than twice as many Caldari players.

These things need to be addressed in some fashion, and they are not, and probably will not be. Players need to be able to get up to speed faster. PVP is far too lossy, not in the amount of ISK you lose when your ship and modules pop, but the amount of time it takes to re-fit a ship... astronomical amounts of your in-game time will be flying from station to station to pick up the parts you need... or... sitting in Jita with everyone else... at all times.

Anyway, I say all of this because it saddens me that CCP has let the game deteriorate the way that it has. You can't ever really invite your friends to play with you like you can in other MMOs... it won't be a matter of a couple of months before they can raid with you, it will be years.

http://www.judgex.com/

Posted: Jun 29th 2009 3:36PM SgtBaker said

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> The developers make no attempt to welcome new players to the game

That's false. They're really trying to shape the new player experience to more "user friendly". They've done countless changes over the years. I agree that the new player experience is still not quite what it should be - but saying that the developers are making no attempts to welcome new players is just plain false.

I agree on your blob-warfare thoughts though. At least to the point of where I'd really like to see CCP promote skirmish warfare through game mechanics more than they've done so far (the stealth and Black Ops changes were kinda ok, but I want to see more).

EVE is by no means "ready" and it still has long ways to go - but it's by far the best MMO out there both in terms of developer attention (and how eager they're to overhaul and re-invent the game) and in involvement required - EVE requires attention, concentration and skill - it's not for everyone, nor is it trying to be.

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Posted: Jun 29th 2009 4:44PM (Unverified) said

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jkjudgex - you claim your a noob at 18 months thats your own dang fault, not CCPs....you got over a billion ISK and no where to spend it, donate it to me...them some pathetic arguments....

Eve is like chess, you can ruin the game in your first move or go on to acheive a 1 month long victory..NO one should be a noob past 6 months....

Posted: Jun 29th 2009 9:24PM (Unverified) said

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I'm sorry, IAMSCIENCE, but for you to think that you can be more than a noob with 18 months of training is simply false.

You can be skilled at one aspect of EVE with those skills, and that aspect will lock you into a single method of gameplay. Did you choose to become a master of Battleships? Maybe you fly a few smaller ships? Maybe you've learned to fly a single type of Capital Ship?

Regardless, someone who did the SAME THING AS YOU but started it a year before you did, well, he now flies something that your character's best efforts can't even get through the shields on. That's just a fact of how the game works.

It isn't "realistic". Train all you want in real life, you do not become IMMUNE to attack like you do in EVE. CCP let it go too far... there are too many multipliers at play...

Let me itemize it for you, so you can save some money:
1) get an EVE calculator...
2) plug in the skills you want to fit within 20 months of play
3) Check the best DPS you can make with any ship.
4) Check the best shield regen rate you can make with any ship.
5) Realization 1: You just became average after almost 2 years.
6) Plug in skills up to 30 months, and watch those DPS and shield regens double, triple, quadruple.
7) Realization 2: You might be worth something in over 2 years, if CCP doesn't change everything in over 2 years.
8) Realize that people who start right now will be MUCH CLOSER to you in 3 years than you will be to people who were 3 years in when you started.
9) Realization 3: EVE = Futility... unless you REALLY get into the "Role Playing" and like to listen to EVE radio and be part of the community.
10) Realization 4: To become average in a single video game, you spent $500.
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Posted: Jun 29th 2009 5:24PM (Unverified) said

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Having played WoW for 3 full years,
out of which for two, the ony thing that gave me any fun was raiding,
to the point that I started leading raids in T6 for the challenge,
after 5 months of EVE, WoW seems so scripted and restricted I
can't even touch it.
the only thing I've realized is that where wow is fun
(for some, I feel a bit old to see the fun in /loving bunnies at 27)
EVE is cool. the things you get involved in,
the freedom and the power are just incomparable,
and yes, I feel the power even in my puny underskilled ishkur!

@jkjudgex: the fact that old players are more powerful than newer ones is not bad in my eyes, there's still a very big game for young pilots, and if anything it adds realism, and a sense of reward to the player for time invested. In fact it annoyed me when I got left behind for a couple of months to see people outgear me, when years ahead of them I have been geared in 6/8 T2.
It's not necesarily bad, it just annoys me personaly to pay a subscription for a game that's not persistent and the work I put into my character accounts to nothing in the long run.

Anyway, sorry for participating to the derailing of this post to a EVE - WoW debate, just felt I had to give my 2c.

+ the reasons in SgtBaker's last two senteces got me HOOKED.

Posted: Jun 29th 2009 5:11PM Wgraves said

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Honestly its not CCPs job (beyond the tutorial) to welcome new players, its each of the corps within the game that need new recruits.

splu.guildlaunch.com


Posted: Jun 29th 2009 6:50PM tRaFiK said

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Ive been playing EVE for 6 months now, jkjudegex - You need to spend the time it takes to get to a larger/better ship honing your skills. Otherwise it would be pointless and just plain silly to spend the massive amounts of ISK required to obtain these just for you to go pop the moment you see a flashing red skull on your overview.

I am no where near this stage, yet still enjoy every aspect of EVE. It's dynamic, real and exciting. I know some will scoff at the word exciting, but I say this because every day I sit down to play, there is something new to learn. The 800 pound gorilla lost me a long time ago when I realized that they take my money and make me churn through the same tired old stuff that may have just had a new texture applied to the models. There is no mystery left in it, everythings been done and seen... I understand this is the mechanics of the game.

EVE Evolves. Everyday.

Posted: Jun 29th 2009 9:10PM (Unverified) said

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I played for over a year and a half. I fully understand the dynamics of how the game works, at all levels, both below and above my own.

I have participated in 300+ ship blob battles, built outposts, managed deep 0.0 mining operations, done everything exploration has to offer, participated in research pre and post nerfage.

I've teched up to fully tech 2 ships, played the markets, manufactured tech 1 and 2 items from researched BPOs, run COSMOS missions and done quite a bit of other stuff within the game.

That being said, I was where you are when I'd played for only 6 months. I was all about it. "Woohoo this is the best thing ever!!!" ... well... move on out to 0.0, buddy, and come back and tell me what you think, then.

It isn't even so much a matter of being a noob, it's just how the game "works". You can't bring your friends into the fold after a year of play. Victory in battle becomes very unpredictable, as blobs take turns yelling out targets over ventrilo and insta-popping individual ships (yours, maybe?). It's just not a mature, fun combat experience, at any level beyond 4-6 ships per side, and actually the most fun I've had in the system is being an individual pirate, fighting 1-2 other ships at most... but that's just being a bully.

It becomes evident that survival in EVE is directly linked to how deep you roll. It gets old, very fast, once you realize this...

Gatecamps, also, by nature of the way the game works, are almost impossible to break without bringing OVERWHELMING odds against the campers (unless they are inexperienced).

Anyway, I'm just saying, I played for 18 months. I loved a lot of the game, but, CCP panders WAY, WAAAAAY too much to people who have played for 3-5+ years. T2 BPOs literally impossible to obtain after they changed research, but the people who already had them could keep them? Whaaaaat? As if catching up via skill-points wasn't already 100% impossible, this change made it so that even new industrialists are doomed to mediocrity.

Don't get me wrong, if you have $500 to waste over the course of the next couple of years, and you don't mind a black screen and giant chat room, play EVE online... but if you're looking for a reasonably balanced and fun MMO gaming experience, definitely stay away. You've got Jumpgate and a few others coming out soon that I predict will seriously injure EVE, anyway, so, I predict the golden age of the game has already passed.

http://www.judgex.com/
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Posted: Jun 30th 2009 5:51AM Dirame said

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Hold on a sec and think about the reason why they'd allow the guys who already had the BPOs keep them, just as there will be guys who are going to have to be cannon fodder, there are guys are going to be the cannons. What I mean is, those BPOs needed some sort of starting point in order to bring about T2 circulation much earlier, and for CCP, letting the players that had them keep them was the best option to start up that circulation.

@ those that believe they need to catch up with older players;

Catching up with old players is a dream you really need to stop fussing yourself about because there's really no point. If all you want to do in a game is catch up to old players then your goals are misplaced, beating an old player takes skill yes but you don't need the same level of skill he/she has to beat him/her, all you need is enough skill to keep you alive or have a tactical advantage. You have to remember that EVE is not all about how many points you have in stamina, it is also about; "what distance can I start shooting at?", "what is my orbit range?", "how much can I tank before I switch on the boosters?"
There's nothing better than making an opponent go; "WTF?!" and their char is 3 years older than yours.
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Posted: Jun 30th 2009 8:48PM tRaFiK said

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Judgex, thanks for the reply, some very valid points and I'm glad you didnt see me as "having a go" at you. I have hit 0.0 once or twice and it was purely out of curiousity, needless to say I went pop pretty damn quick. I completely understand your point about the fact that it is hard to bring friends in after 12 months of playing and expect them to play on the same level.

I guess my love is that there is so much to learn in EVE and I enjoy that learning process in itself. Understandbly you will eventually learn everything (Game mechanics, not skills) but I feel that is a long way away for me.

A point I think I forgot to mention but was mentioned by Darame is that the one thing that EVE can hold is that a person playing for 6 months can (Maybe not easily) take out a 3 year old player if they have the knowledge. Whereas most other games (Generally gear based) this is damn near impossible, and I think would isolate a new player even further. I don't really play EVE as a full time game, a few hours every couple of nights so I think the game will last a lot longer for me (Now that ARMA 2 is released! I'm a sucker for detail!)

The money side is not really an issue, I spend waaaay too much on games as it is with 5 MMO subscriptions, not to mention the constant purchases on Steam. Damn that easy to use credit card!!

Not sure if this post made a point or not, but thought I'd share it anyway. :)
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Posted: Jun 29th 2009 7:28PM DrOoo said

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EVE is amazing. It is really evolving nad I think that in this last 2 years CCP has really found ways to truly improve and revolutionize this game.

I belive the biggest problem people have with the game is that it takes a little longer to be able to experience the cool stuff and even after you do you will never catch up to the best players.

Regarding the comment of feeling frustrated because you stopped playing for a couple of months and saw new players passing you, well let me tell you that it is less frustrating than stop playing for a few months and know you will never be able to catch up to those that passed you, which happened to me in fact. Me and my friend started playing together but classes got the best of me and I took a break now hes way ahead of me and there is no way I will ever reach him.

EVE follows the sandbox idea very well but what I think CCP needs to understand that its OK to reward old players for their loyalty but there should be a cap on levels etc. Its a game after all you shouldn't be punished in a way you can never recover (in terms of comparing yourself with other players).

EVE is only 6 years old but if the game keeps going they will eventually have to put a cap because then there will be absolutely no point in a new player getting involved when you are literally years behind in skills/stats.

I love EVE but CCP needs to rethink the skill system.

I got back to playing WoW after almost 3 year break, and even thou I haven been playing for those 3 years I was able to get into the swing of things in less than 2 months.

That's why WoW is my go-to game when I have some time to invest in an MMO, because in 2 months I can be back in the scene, and EVEs skill=time scheme is what is keeping me away from rejoining even after only 1 or 2 months of me taking a break.

Its long and I didn't really read-proof it so bare with the spelling or awkward sentences.

Posted: Jul 2nd 2009 12:34AM MrVister said

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I have been playing EVE for about a month and a half and it is just about to lose me.

The skill system is just backwards. I am not logged in playing right now because I have to wait for some skill to train. I don't need money as I figured out how to make it as soon as I started. There is nothing I can buy right now that I can use.


Because I have to wait 3-5 days for some stupid skill to train. I can't grind it out faster. There is no benefit to me being logged in right now. I can do nothing to advance my character.

What makes this worse is that I am still under the skill cap and have 100% training time. When I get past that cap I will probably quit as waiting 10 days or more for a skill to train will stretch my patience out.

I need to be actively raising my skills or there needs to be a way to buy faster training.

Other games are not as deep but I at least have more influence over my character. Right now I can't do much as I am waiting for skills to finish training.

I am not saying it is a crappy game or anything but it might not be the game for me. Right now EVE seems to be the game to play when I want to read that new book I bought.

Posted: Jun 30th 2009 3:05AM Lamthara said

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uhm... well all know that eve isn't an easy mmo. And actually i guess it couldn't be more than this... not that much than this at least.
The reason is quite simple. Eve isn't a run on the rollercoaster like most of the games out there where you can decide only the seat where to sit but there will be always the rail that will take you where the developers want you to go to.

I started to play this game 3 months ago after almost 3 years of wow... and i don't regret this choice. I have the freedom to decide what to do everyday. In the other games you grind your lvl from 1 to 60/70/80/whatever... then you start do raids and make instances. Those are limited by the developers' immagination and the patches that have been released. In Eve everything is decided by you. One day i want to do missions and then i drive my nice ship and i go to explode some rats.... the other day i would like to discover some nice sites so i take my probes... another day my corp decides to set up some special jobs inside a wormhole and with dozens of ships we jump into the unknown...
It's all about me.

It's true that some of the choices made by CCP don't make the game easy to be understood by new gamers but i guess this is "more true" if those come from another mmo that use the "railway approach". They expect others to control his game and they expect the game to tell them what to do. After you pass this stage (and it can take 1 hour like 1 month) everything is just smooth.

Anyway CCP has made a great job with the new tutorial in Apocrypha. Once the first game experience was like "meh... where do i start now?" and the noob was staring at the gui of eve just like he opened Maya and someone was asking him to create Shrek IV in 3 hours. Now the learning curve isn't that steep, the first agents teach you most of the things you need to know to start the basic career and if you have the luck to join the right corporation you discover that you are always useful. Even from the very beginning... things i can't say of wow, for instance.

Posted: Jul 2nd 2009 11:03PM OmegaTwig said

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ConAir, you have some valid points about the skill system. I have been playing EvE for almost 2 years now and there has been some times when i didnt play for 10 or 20 days because i was waiting for a skill to finish, and there have also been weeks where i have not logged off for about 4 days straight (i'd take naps with TS on really loud so i'd wake up when stuff started rolling) but that is the whole allure of EvE...

If you start a new character it will take you about 3 months to get all the skills you need to fly a full T2 fit tech 2 frig (interceptor for example) with faction ammo and equipment and whatever. The only thing someone who has been playing for 2+ years on you if he was in an interceptor would just be the fact that he has probably flown in it more often than you: the two of you would be equally matched, same basic tank and dps, you two would be statistically equal in every aspect of the game you can think about on paper... but with hard work and time you put into the game you (being only 3 months old) can still beat him...

I have friends who have played eve with me for these 2(ish) years, we started at exactly the same time but have chosen different carrier paths and have a vastly different skill set but even tho he has not put as many of his skills into combat as i have he can still whoop my ass at PvP and he is still a valuable asset to any large end game corp (if there is such a thing as end game in eve)

One thing that i've learned over these years in eve is that if a fleet commander had a choice between a bunch of grizzled vets in their fancy ships with their faction mods or a bunch of "newbs" who are in their cruisers and frigs with limited weapons... 3 out of 5 times the FC will pick the less experienced group because they are not set in their ways, they fly ships that they are willing to lose and they will listen better...

Every person is important no matter what they fly... if you can fit a T1 frig with a Warp Disruptor and an X5 web then you are valuable... The experienced people cant do anything with out "new" people their to help them hold their victims down while they tear their ships apart piece by piece... This is what EvE is about: Everyone helping everyone else out for a common goal, no matter how many skill points you have... it is just a number after all


(and if you think the skill system is screwy you shoulda played EvE before they added a skill que in, THEN youll get the right to complain about it)

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