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Reader Comments (15)

Posted: May 22nd 2009 11:27AM (Unverified) said

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"'Principles of Leadership' test requires the player to obtain 21 petition signatures"

Let me guess, a horde of people stand around shouting "need xx signs, plz help" in every channel? And then you get the "will sign for gold" shouters? etc, etc...

Most MMOers will do everything the laziest way possible, whether that's buying collection stuff from an AH or looking up the answer online. At least with Kill and FedEx quests you can't actually "cheat" in this way.

Minigames are an interesting idea. I'd like to see more of this, but not too much. I certainly, absolutely, do not want to see quick time event popping up in MMOs - which is basically a minigame itself.

You should look at games like DDO for real variety. I actually the hate the game, but the quests were often very good. Yes... a lot of go kill this guy stuff, but you still had to get past traps (do you take the hit, do you dodge it, do you find the hidden switch), pick your route, decide whether to waste health/spells on fights you can avoid for the hidden extras... and better yet every time you did it it was a bit different, because they gave different setups ways to finish each quest (no thief? can't open that door, have to fight the boss for the key, etc).

Questing needs more thought than - insert minigame. That's the lazy solution.

Posted: May 22nd 2009 3:03PM TheJackman said

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"Minigames are an interesting idea. I'd like to see more of this, but not too much. I certainly, absolutely, do not want to see quick time event popping up in MMOs - which is basically a minigame itself."

Go buy a Nintendo Wii lots of mini games! However please keep the mini games out of the MMOs!!
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Posted: May 22nd 2009 11:48AM (Unverified) said

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I'd still like to see a gameplay shift instead of, or in addition to, the quest giver mentality. Unless you're a slave to your parents or your boss, in real life we don't need people to tell us what to do all the time. We find our own goals driven by interest and profit. And with MMOs, which are such capitalistic and materialistic games, I'm surprised we don't just dangle the proverbial carrots out in the world and let players do it themselves.

Man. I'm starting to sound like an EVE player.

I don't think the questing mechanic is broken, but the reason I play CoH instead of WoW is because I got tired of being told what to do. Just give me an instance and let me go kick guys in the face.

Posted: May 22nd 2009 11:50AM Tom in VA said

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There are also escort quests (we all know these!), discover quests (locate such and such person or place), construction quests (gather items A to build B), destruction quests (blow something up real good!), and so on.

I actually think there are quite a wide variety of quests in MMOs, and I've often been impressed by the creativity demonstrated by the quest designers in, say, WoW, LotRO, or Guild Wars. In fact, for my money, getting a simple "Kill Ten Rats"-type quest can actually provide some relief from the complexity of some quests that send you scurrying to the local wiki in order to figure out what to do.

The basic building blocks of quest design are kill, fetch, carry, build, go, protect, and so on, but a lot of creative things can be done with those basic ingredients. While one still has to "kill 10 rats" occasionally, I still come across a lot of unusual and entertaining quests show up as as well. Some of the missions and quest lines in Guild Wars, in particular, were really creative and, on occasion, absolute hysterical ("Goren's Pet Rock" or Norgu's plays in Nightfall come to mind). Very VERY funny, creative, and high-quality material.

So, basically, the only complaints I have about quests are those that are designed to be really annoying, such as FedEx quests that send you all over kingdom come for some paltry reward. Anyone who has ever done the mount quest in LotRO, for example, knows EXACTLY what I am talking about.

Posted: May 22nd 2009 12:11PM (Unverified) said

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It sounds like DDO is just offering more rewards and choices within the quest. These are psychological fixes, more than some dashing flash of innovation, however, they sound like they could be very effective.

The core issue is choices. We're going to kill millions of 'rats' in our careers, but having no choice but to kill these ten rats in this area right now, and then again tomorrow and the next day, and the day after that... ugh.

But if we have choices, for instance, sacrificing resources for assistance/bonuses (a device that draws rats, but takes health for instance), or going and purchasing the proof of dead rats, or using rats to attract others with a little extra work. Taking on a raid that would fulfill all your kill 10 rat needs for the reset of the month. Just break it up, don't force players to go through this area twice and kill ten rats. That choice frees up a lot of the tedium.

But the actual quest itself, killing ten rats is not the problem. As much as we love combat, we want to kill things because we want to, not because we have to. It's all in the psychology. Yes, you can just revolutionize your player-NPC interaction system so that gameplay can be varied in and of itself, but that's not necessary for a game that doesn't play that way.

As for the FedEx missions, just add challenge. Other than a timer. All those missions need are some spice (and kill 10 is not spice). Have a mob chasing the player down, have some "impassable" barrier, have the mob be aggressive under some condition that they have to overcome in order to deliver the item without killing them.

Posted: May 22nd 2009 12:36PM Brendan Drain said

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"Kill ten ogres" shouldn't be the quest. It may be what you end up doing to complete the quest but the quest itself should be something adventurous like "Scout the road ahead for bandits and deal with them". It's all a matter of psychology and disguising the grind.

A few of the World of Warcraft quests I remember doing managed to disguise themselves very well and presented some interesting mechanics. Some of the areas in Everquest 2 also have some very innovative quest mechanics but EQ2's areas are very hit-or-miss in that regard.

Posted: May 22nd 2009 12:51PM Tanek said

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""Kill ten ogres" shouldn't be the quest. It may be what you end up doing to complete the quest but the quest itself should be something adventurous like "Scout the road ahead for bandits and deal with them". It's all a matter of psychology and disguising the grind."

This is why, when it comes to the actual questing, I liked playing GuildWars. Even aside from missions, most quests seemed to have some goal that did not set a 'kill x of y'. Of course, an instanced structure makes such a thing easier. Otherwise, you can end up with the old days of players standing around for long periods of time waiting for their turn at the quest.
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Posted: May 22nd 2009 1:02PM RogueJedi86 said

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I really hope Star Wars: The Old Republic tries to shake it up. All its rich BioWare lore will mean jack if all the quests are the typical Rat and Delivery quests that the article spoke of. I'd like to see them shake up everything, with quests of all the established types, plus some new ones.

And give me class quests, I love those, the very essence of the class you play. WoW has a few of them, and I'd like more.

Posted: May 22nd 2009 1:20PM (Unverified) said

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I would love to see more quests that actually have an impact in the game world. In many MMOs there are NPC factions at war with one another. If there was a contested zone being fought over by high level npcs (powerful enough to prevent players from getting involved) the players could do quests that actually affect the outcome of the conflict. Say, perhaps, there is a keep that factions are fighting to either control or defend. Players could collect bandages that then put more NPCs back into the fight for their faction; or collect materials for weapons and armor. You could be tasked with recruiting new combatants, each combatant then having their own 'payoff' quest the player needs to complete before agreeing to be recruited. A typical FedEx quest would be transformed as returning the remains of a fallen hero to their family, or delivering letters to the folks back home.

Dynamic questing is also something that seems to be lacking. Imagine a fox, rabbit, farmer, trapper scenario. The trapper wants pelts of a certain color, the farmer wants the rabbits to stop eating his crop, the trapper wants the foxes to stop eating his rabbits, the farmer wants to the foxes to be protected. The balance will shift depending on how many players complete the quests of killing rabbits/foxes or trapping & releasing same. Depending on when the player comes into the situation they will be given a different task, and the results of completing that task will have a direct and immediate impact on what quests will be available for other players. Griefers will be around making it difficult/challenging for everyone. To take it a step further, the vendor price of leather and food goods in nearby towns could fluctuate depending on how well a quest giver is doing.

These quests are not that different than what we deal with now, but they actually have some meaning in the context of the game. Doing a "kill X" quest without any real impact is just mind numbing. If devs start looking at how players doing these quests can actually alter the game then i think the sinking feeling of grinding will start to fade a bit.

Posted: May 22nd 2009 1:33PM (Unverified) said

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I remember fondly a LotR "defend the NPC" type quest that had no violence. You go into an instance expecting to kill brigands, only to be told that these poor boys are just misunderstood. You and the hobbit you are defending give the brigands a "stern talking to" and instead of taking their health to zero, they get about halfway down before being suitably lectured about their naughty ways. Speaking sternly to the bad guys was a hilarious riff on the usual. At the end of the quest, everyone apologizes and sits down at the campfire to share a bit of dinner.

Posted: May 22nd 2009 1:39PM (Unverified) said

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I hate to do this to you Tim, but you need to play Wrath of the Lich King. I know, it's WoW, but the quests in Wrath are by far the best I've had in any MMO. I did all of Northrend, every quest, and enjoyed 75% of it, which is far above my average 2% enjoyment rate.

So I think you'd be doing yourself a huge favor to see just how good Blizzard got at changing up and making quests interesting in Wrath. This doesn't mean the basic fundamentals have changed, but the way you do them did. They made those same old basic boring quests actually fun.

So Tim, while I know it's been a long time, I can't recommend enough that you pick up Wrath of the Lich King. And since you've mentioned you had a 60, I recommend even more you make a Death Knight, any server, play their starting area, zoom through Outlands (it isn't that good), and experience Wrath of the Lich King's questing. It's really great, often. A few suck.

But now I'm back to LotRO, since I'm bored of WoW, and LotRO is a beautiful new world I'm really enjoying. And for $10 right now (until June 30), every MMO player owes it to themselves to buy it. It's a damn steal at that price.

Posted: May 22nd 2009 10:52PM karnisov said

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sry, lotro quests are more stale than spam in a can. 95% of the time it consists of kill 10 of these, bring me 15 of these. over and over and over. that was the reason i left.
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Posted: May 22nd 2009 10:53PM karnisov said

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the one bright spot was some of the shire quests, and the inn league quests. unfortunately inn league quests are seasonal and you outgrow the shire by lvl 10-12.
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Posted: May 23rd 2009 2:48AM (Unverified) said

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I'm new to LotRO, just started, and at no point did I make a claim that it would be any different than any other MMO. Best questing I've seen so far has been Wrath of the Lich King. No other MMO has even come close for questing.

So I'm playing it because it's something new and different, not because it's better than another game. At least the game has a point to it, unlike some *cough*EVE*cough*. Acquiring more currency isn't the meaning of life, for me at least. Talk about a horrible boring grind.
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Posted: May 22nd 2009 3:24PM (Unverified) said

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Perhaps the apparent problem with standard MMORPG quests is that they are still not seen as constitutive mechanics for games of the genre. In a team based shooter, I organize with others to kill enemy forces or capture a flag or control point on a map. In MMORPGs of a certain vein, I complete quests, particularly ones that have a transparent end condition and predictable means to accomplish those goals. The grind that these quests obfuscate is the central mechanic in these games and as such it shouldn't be derided; the grind is what defines most modern MMORPGs and is the basis for a lot of the entertainment.

To the extent that the grind, and by extensions quests, are an integral part to these games, I am satisfied. However, I would, as I think you would, like to explore other gameplay mechanics in the MMO space. I would like a game that is more similar to a JRPG with a linear, overarching story that I could perhaps complete cooperatively. I'm interested in new "sports" games, something like BF1942 or the original Tribes but with more persistence.

Wrath of the Lich King has been, in my experience, a step towards expanding upon the traditional formula in the modern MMORPG space. While many have derided them as "gimmicks," the vehicle based encounters and quests are ways to explore different gameplay mechanics and activities within WoW, all within the context of a quest driven experience. Ultimately though designers are limited by man hours and have a finite capacity to create content. The only way to transcend these limitations to engender a long lasting experience is to facilitate ways for the community to create content. This depends on the nature of the game mechanics but also, at least in part, on the attitude and maturity of the community. A Tale in the Desert seems to thrive within its niche because of a healthy mix of the two. I hope a mainstream game will achieve that soon as well, and perhaps with overall maturation of people within virtual communities the wait will not be long.

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