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Reader Comments (13)

Posted: May 19th 2009 10:28AM Dlangar said

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This is a great interview. One of the things I find most telling is Mythic's realization that they had players that weren't from the background they expected them to be from, and they needed to take care of that player too.

If you're building an MMO that has some particular unique aspect to it, well you can't just say "this MMO is all about rvr and the rest of you can go **** off." or you will *always* be small and niche (I'm looking at you DarkFall). The best MMO's are the ones that realize even though they may have started with preconceptions about their players, they learn from the kinds of players they *do* have, and make changes accordingly.

Very nice.

Dlangar
http://ofcourseillplayit.com

Posted: May 19th 2009 12:48PM TheJackman said

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Still even with this update the game sucks! I think Warhamer online never will life up to the marketed version! Time to move on check out other games......

There is still hope for Age of Conan however but they really need add lots of content like its still pretty low for a mmo and learn the art of compress files! Graphics take a lot of harddisk space but we also want content and lots of it!

And we want to see a lot more of the Conan girl!

Posted: May 19th 2009 1:27PM Boruk said

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so wait...

Warhammer will fail but AoC will become great?

/facepalm
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Posted: May 19th 2009 1:37PM TheJackman said

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Yeah AoC resold some of there main issues but the one that keep is the content lag but the pve is way better them anything in Warhammer online. I do not think AoC will ever become great it will just become one of the mmos that will be around for some time. It never will get anywhere near the Everquest high or get anywhere near the world of warcraft numbers.

The 300k number that Warhammer Online got now is the same them 2 months ago and look like its stuck there.... Lag of content is the main issue for mmo today!

Posted: May 21st 2009 2:48PM (Unverified) said

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Actually WAR subs are closer to 450k now.
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Posted: May 20th 2009 10:03AM HadesLotD said

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Good article. I have a few comments.

1. RVR Tokens and Pricing

Tokens still drop less frequently, and token prices are still high. For instance and Invader piece is 300+ officer tokens and several invader tokens. Well if you aren't doing scenario premades, or running with an organized guild in RVR you aren't going to amass that many tokens anytime soon.

The problem with this is that gear has such an impact on PVP power that someone in green gear isn't going to compete well against someone in Invader or Warlord gear. So either speed up the tokens, reduce the price, or lessen the power variance between gear.

2.
For the short term, I think that people will fight over Land of the Dead and abandon city sieges. City sieges just aren't fun because too much emphasis is placed on killing PQ mobs instead of players. Until that system is reworked, expect Land of the Dead to become the main RVR focus of the game.

3.
Lastly, all these things are good but client performance really needs to get improved. Other than the unfun T4 RVR that many players experienced the first 6 months of War, the client performance on decent gaming machines is probably what cost Mythic the most people.

This game should be playable with Geforce 7 cards and a single core CPU, or a C2D CPU with a Geforce 8 card. Those are the most common pc systems of the last 4 years, but in zone combat Warhammer stutters or turns into a slideshow for most players even on minimum settings. WoW has 11 million people because the game is fun, but also you don't have to have a modern PC to play it.

Great write up, and I look foward to seeing future improvements.

Posted: May 20th 2009 10:18AM (Unverified) said

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"So, for you and I, we've been playing MMOs for a while. But there are people out there who have never touched any other MMO except for WoW. That game is all they know. They don't know what EQ was like, they don't know what UO was like, they don't know what MUDs are, so they don't have this broad concept. They just want stuff now and they want to get out quickly. They want instant gratification and they want to be constantly patted on the back with an enthusiastic, "Good job, good job!"

While you don't say that every player is this way, your comment insinuates that all WOW players are unsophisticated louts that have no idea what greatness is.

Well I played D&D black box in the early 80's,Zork1 and so on.... Played Realm, UO, EQ, SWG and DAOC which I thoroughly enjoyed.

To say that its kids that have no idea about games that dislike WAR and are a gratz happy bunch is not only short sighted but insulting. I gave WAR some real honest trials. I had 2 brand newish Macintosh laptops that I sold just to buy 2 windows laptops (costing me roughly $3k). Bought the early entry from Target, I drake the Koolaid you put out.

The game just sucked. It was beautiful and epic. It just lacked something. It was tough to do the public quests because even after launch you would have to run around an area and wait forever to get enough doing the PQ to even get the end guy.

Going to the capital cities was boring. I would wander around forever trying to find things. Even when I found the auction house there was no economy to speak of. Your team just missed the big picture. You focused on the beauty of the thing and missed what it takes to keep people coming back. Its not that WOW stole people from you which I bet they did. Its just that you released the game too soon. In beta everyone assumed that when the hordes of people showed up it would get better. All in all the game was a real flop and that is why I left.

I love how mythic does RVR, I think Bliz needs to learn how you did it in DAOC. Its just that you missed the mark with regards to the rest of the game. It was like a beautiful sculpture that was made out of paper thin clay and painted to look bronze. What you get is something gorgeous on the outside but hollow in the middle. Its a juicy steak made from tofu.

Be careful lumping we wow players in with 12yr old kids that have never played an MMO before. I have played them all and deserve a little respect when it comes to lumping everyone together.

I understand your frustrated, may lose your job and all that but blaming the players for not understanding your superior product is like Yugo being upset that the drivers of their cars are dying in automobile crashes and they have to close the factory. When you point tour finger at someone you have 3 more pointing back at you.

Tofu for thought...

Posted: May 20th 2009 11:12AM Chriskovo said

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The token system killed this game. As soon as that came out like 5 of my friends quit the game. Everything is just a grind now in this game with fewer xp and renown rewards for everything rvr wise. They say objective and keep capture was to emphasised and they went tot he whole only rewoard zone captures now. Well guess what Mythic i dont want to waste time waiting around for a zone capture. I want to be able to login for a few hours take some objectives and feel like i have done something, not just feel like part of a grind. And the new changes have screwed over all the lower tiers. You can barley find enoguh people to try to even attempt a keep siege in T3, nevermind if their are champion guards everywhere. Over the last two weeks i have not seen a rvr T3 warband with more then 10 people in it. IT makes the game barley playable and all my friends are frustrated with it. Fix this stuff soon or you wont have a playerbase and with out that a pvp type game is doomed.

Posted: May 20th 2009 3:39PM (Unverified) said

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I am unclear. Did he say they aren't working on 2nd ramp anymore?

There are several reason this game is failing first is the population imbalances. Take a look at the majority of the servers and it is one realm that is reigning supreme. Rarely do you see a server that is balanced.

The lag is teribble in large scale fights. Fort caps are bogus. I can't even play the game that was promised because of pop caps on the End game content. Scenario's are no fun for the average casual player since all they will face are premade guild groups.

Lockout timers for the 3 end game dungeons are too long for only having 3 of them. Hopefully with the new changes to dungeons maybe we will see a bit more ativity in the 3 end game dungeons.

City Sieges are lagfests and too much importance placed on Killing NPCs.

Class balance is out of whack. Even with the new "balance" patch 1.3 they are going to buff one archtype way ahead of all others (MDPS > All others) They need to try to find a balance instead of large swings in one direction everytime with sweeping changes.

There is no other facet to the game other than zerg or be zerged. There is very little community/chatter/economy. There is no realm pride since everything changes hands on a daily/2hour basis. Even on certain servers the cities are locked out every few days. When the other realm has "invaded" your city there is absolutely 100% nothing to do other than PVE for 17 hours. EXP gains in groups is nerfed so it doesn't even pay to group with players. You gain exp, renown and influence quicker if you run solo.

I play this game everyday. I still enjoy certain aspects of it, BUT if it weren't for my guildmates still playing I would have dropped 3 months ago.

Posted: May 20th 2009 8:28PM (Unverified) said

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@Joe

That wall of text became useless as soon as I read where you were getting at in the first paragraph. If you learn to read when they "there are people" and not EVERYONE IN WOW IS A NOOB. Then you would have saved yourself 20 minutes from writing that wall of text that is being ignored now. GJ you fail. Play him off keyboard cat :P.

@Jack

You're also REALLY funny, you realize that you're being biased? Your saying AoC is gonna live for some time but warhammer is such a failure that there 400k+ subscribe is basically nothing to consider that people are actually enjoying the damn game for what it's worth? Warhammer to me is geared towards casual PvE players where you dont spend your whole life creating a second life in game like almost all games are trying to do right now. Because it doesn't force you to raid for hours or quest for days it opens up the RvR content and lets you level and fight players and gain gear by just doing that.

Don't get me wrong though if you like AoC then dude go ahead and PLAY AoC, lust for AoC, marry AoC and take AoC's virginity on prom night thats all fine and dandy but when you try to force your PvE ideals on a RvR game that isn't going to do a lot of PvE then your not making any sense It sounds like your trying to find a reason to like WAR but your having a hard time getting past the fact that WAR isn't the prettier then AoC or PvE whore like WoW.

Posted: May 21st 2009 2:44PM (Unverified) said

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I think WAR is a great game, far better than WoW. I've played WoW for 2 years, and i'm very very disappointed about all the issues WoW has with PVP unbalanced classes. It was all about farming and farming and all for nothing. Unless you spend 12 hours a day playing, you get nothing decent.

WAR is different. I only have 1 or 2 hours a day for playing, and in those 2 hours, I want to have FUN. I have FUN playing WAR, and I believe that's a good reason for me to keep playing. And I'll do it as long as any player can have fun no matter what class you are.

I'm looking forward to see all the game upgrades!

Posted: May 21st 2009 5:36PM TheJackman said

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Subs does not really matter for the gamer mostly if it did World of Warcraft was that best game ever what we all known not is true! WoW is more MMO Easy mode. War did try to be the next WoW but more pvp base and some may like it, I do not and hate it and there pvp is just as bad.

Posted: May 26th 2009 11:13AM sobelius said

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The interview shows that Mythic designers miss the main investment I think most people have in MMOs: their characters ("main and alts"). If they want RvR to matter to players, or for players to engage in it more, then it has to be a HUGE source of reward for the play time invested.

When you play in RvR, your character should almost always come away with great gear as well as get a ton of renown and XP. Instead, even with all the changes since launch, it STILL feels like the opposite is true: RvR offers minimal rewards (10 loot bags available for 40 people, so 30 people go empty handed); minimal XP and renown (terrible XP and renown for RvR in T1-T3). And in the pursuit to improve their character, OF COURSE people will follow the path of least resistance. This is a GAME - most of us play it to have fun, not to spend time "working" -- players with jobs already do that enough outside of the game, thank you.

Since many players don't have luxury or interest in playing WAR 24x7, most people will play the content that gives their character the greatest reward for the time invested in playing. Players will gravitate toward whatever gives the greatest amount of XP or Renown, the greatest amount of gold or crafting components or the best gear, in the least amount of time possible.

As another poster said, no player I know of has such an investment in their home zones or keeps, etc. that they regularly want to spend 3 or 4 hours of play with little to no reward for that time. This isn't the case when a game is first released since everything is new and people are willing to invest more itme because they are enjoying exploring character development, the content, gear, etc. But once players have done that, they immediately look for ways to optimize their reward for time invested. This is almost always true when people level up alts and look for the fastest route possible.

I think if Mythic really wants people engaged in RvR, then they should make RvR the best place to get the most XP, renown, AND gear for the time invested playing.

Land of the Dead prediction: will initially surge in interest and popularity because it's new, but also because it offers T3 and low T4 characters faster leveling. This may lead to more players helping out with resource gathering and zone control/cap. Soon afterward, players will notice that they will be able to get into LoD without having to go into open RvR. Why? Because the core RvR guilds on their server will do the "work" of getting control. The path of least resistance will kick in and most players will just wait for someone else to do whatever it takes to flip control of LoD. Again, this is because the effort required to open access to LoD will not give the same level of reward as actually playing in LoD.

Therefore, if Mythic wants players to do RvR before gaining access to LoD, then EACH CHARACTER should have to do something like be part of a successful keep capture, or cap 4 BOs, etc. before they can board the airship to LoD. When control of LoD flips, then characters have to re-earn access. But most players will chafe at this because keep taking and BO captures are already low on the "fun" scale -- that is, being forced to play or do something "unfun" in order to get to the "fun" content, simply sucks. If keep taking and BO capping were enjoyable (or at least highly rewarding) in their own right, then there would be no need to gate LoD based on RvR.

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