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Reader Comments (26)

Posted: Apr 28th 2009 9:40AM FrostPaw said

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There are still premade groups and warbands they generaly have somewhere to go and something to do other then roam around looking for a fight though. WAR has smaller more compact RvR areas so small groups can'y hide from big groups. If you're in a small group you go after objectives or you queue for scenarios premades still dominate scenarios and premade vs premade is a serious ruck in a scenario but the recent changes to Zone Domination have favoured Ganking in a zerg far more and made scenarios far less worthwhile for Zone control.

Mythic specificly set out to reduce the effectiveness of crowd control and compared to DAOC they have done that but players are still complaining there is too much of it so I don't think you will ever see WAR players locking down larger groups of enemies anytime soon. Zerg is best except on your framerate.

Posted: Apr 28th 2009 9:43AM Interitus said

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I don't believe what I'm reading. Gank groups = people who roam around and pounce on anyone unlucky enough to get in their way, regardless of level or class. There is no "honour" no "strategy" they just outnumber individual players and ruin their experience.

Being ganked isn't a fun process. It's frustrating. You are right WAR doesn't have people ganking PVP, which is why I think I enjoy it.

Honetsly, reading this article made me sick. They aren't elite, they are players whose sole purpose in a game is to make other peoples lives miserable, and you want them to fix it so people can do that?

Posted: Apr 28th 2009 9:56AM brookep said

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I was hoping people would at least read the _first paragraph_ before jumping all over the term. This article defines a gank groups as:

"Gank groups are simply organized, pre-made groups, usually formed by members of the same guild that work extremely well together. Usually, a gank group will destroy a pick-up group (PuG) and zerg because they employ smarter tactics, keep cooler heads, and communicate more effectively."

"Ganking" has several meanings, but this article clearly defines it in a way that doesn't match your definition.
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Posted: Apr 28th 2009 10:18AM (Unverified) said

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Did you even read her article? She specifically stated that gank groups in DAoC were small groups designed to disable large zergs. She didn't mean the WoW gankers, the kind that kill lowbies or grief individuals.
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Posted: Apr 28th 2009 1:07PM (Unverified) said

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I played in gank group on Palomides. We were actually a pretty large guild that was heavily involved in realm defense (often fielding 2 to 3 groups in the zerg), but we also fielded a regular group that ran nightly apart from the zerg.

Contrary to what Pingles believes, we weren't "miserable little mama's boys" (for example, I'm 43, married, have a son, am pretty athletic and a professional). We roamed around and took out other groups of 8, 16 even 24 players. We coordinated with the zerg (admittedly, some did not) and scouted for them. We often operated as a tactical shock force. Zerg would meet zerg and we'd flank or strike from behind. We participated in relic assaults all the time and sometimes, when our frontier was in danger, we'd invade the opposing realm's frontier to begin taking their keeps to put them on the defensive.

We were highly organized, highly geared, fully buffed, Vent-enabled and extremely disciplined. There's a place in for that kind of play. The only issue I have with some groups is the reluctance/arrogance they sometimes display in being unwilling to participate in a coordinated way.

And as for the whole honor/regardless of level or class crap . . . please. Just as there's a certain amount of reward, there's a certain amount of risk. If I see you, I'll kill you. And besides, it's not like you lose much in games like DAoC and Warhammer. All you're really risking is a little time, some coin to buy back your death penalty and a little pride.
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Posted: Apr 28th 2009 9:46AM Pingles said

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What an interesting perspective. I always had the greatest disdain for gank groups and wondered what type of pimply, miserable little mama's boys played in them.

I saw them as spoilers. They were just there to stop folks from attaining the goals the game had laid out. They took pleasure in ruining the game for others. While others were strategizing to take Keeps and Relics they were there just to collect Realm XP by attacking you when your back was turned. Not to help their realm, but because they wanted a sword with flames on it.

You've given me a new perspective about them but I'm afraid I still don't look very fondly on them.

Posted: Apr 28th 2009 9:51AM (Unverified) said

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There's no point for small groups. WAR is almost exclusively about two things:

1) Numbers
2) the ability of all those numbers to follow direction.

Which ever side has more balance amoung the two, wins. Small gank groups are just called out in /region and become the target of the roaming zerg(s).

Posted: Apr 28th 2009 10:34AM Darkstryke said

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There are few gank groups because WAR's pvp is arcade garbage compared to DAoC.

Posted: Apr 28th 2009 10:34AM (Unverified) said

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You're not elite because you choose to run only in a select set of "cookie cutter" groups. You're really just exploiting game mechanics in your favor as optimally as possible.

That's what an 8 man was in DAOC, that's what a 6 or 12 man would be in Warhammer.

I personally think it's a good mark on the design of the game that 6-12 people cannot easily overcome 20+ as could be done in DAOC. Because, while it may be "fun" to feel all "elite" and "skilled" by being in the 8-man, the reality of it is that you won because you stacked the deck before you left the warm safety of the capital city... I repeat, it is NOT skill to join a cookie cutter "gank group".

The VAST majority of the RPs earned by this kind of group don't come from battling down zergs or epic gank group vs. gank group battles... they come from rolling up on people who are previously engaged either by players or npcs, and cutting them down from behind, smaller or larger number groups notwithstanding...

So quit trying to pretend like you come from some noble line of ancient warriors of the old code, when in fact you're just a member of a group of guys who figured out the best way to jack someone for their money in Dark Age of Camelot, which allowed synergies that were OFF THE CHARTS.

In DAOC, a single, fully buffed character was mathematically proven at one point to be between 250% and 280% more powerful than a single unbuffed character of the same class. You want to know where your "gank" groups are? They died with that ridiculous overpowered buffing thing. Now, instead of each of your 8 guys being worth 2-3 foes on the field, he's worth maybe like 1.3, which means your group of 6 MIGHT overcome a disorganized 7 or 8 man on your best day, while they were busy elsewhere.

For numbers, data, and good mathematical work, read this IGN post:
http://vnboards.ign.com/Camelot_RvR_Forum/b22330/61704929/?0

To contact me or read some random crap I wrote:
http://www.judgex.com/







Posted: Apr 28th 2009 6:15PM (Unverified) said

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Sounds like it's coming from someone who never participated in a "gank group" (again, i hate the name, as it's inaccurate) in daoc. Yes, buffed people had an advantage, but EVERYONE was buffed.

When people are talking about the "skill" involved, it's a fact. I played with 7 other people, and day 1 we got rolled. Weeks later after practice, we start taking out other 8 mans, and even bigger groups. Same chars - no gear changes.

So yes, people who did well in gank groups in daoc were "skilled" (i don't know about elite). And your assertion that most of the RP's came from single players fighting NPC's is just laughable. Most RP's came from 8v8 fights or 8vZerg, where if you triumphed, it was absolutely noteworthy and required skill.

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Posted: Apr 28th 2009 10:44AM Gaugamela said

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What i think creates very low incentives for the formation of smaller groups in WAR is the diminishing returns from player kills in the RvR areas. There's no point in wasting time in small group fights when you can earn a truckload of more XP/renown/influence by capping a keep or BO.

They should cut the diminishing returns in player kills and increase the renown and influence gained from killing players and also increase the number of tokens droped from players. They should also give economical and buffing benefits for the guilds that claim keeps instead of making them gold sinks and award big renown chinks when you capture them. This way keeps would be interesting to own because they give benefits for guilds (and would still be attacked) and more small groups would roam around the battlefield.
Oh well, we can only pray that they will get the game right in the coming months. It is getting better and better though.

Posted: Apr 28th 2009 11:03AM (Unverified) said

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Gank groups in DAOC are just the PVP form of Raider's Elitism. I appreciate the challenge, but perhaps WAR just isn't for you?

Posted: Apr 28th 2009 11:24AM Crsh said

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You can still steamroll pugs in scenarios with a gank squad, but scenarios are obviously just a small aspect of the game and can even be largely ignored. On the other hand, gank squads then to ruin the experience for some, so I'm not entirely unhappy they're pointless in WAR.

Posted: Apr 28th 2009 11:27AM Abriael said

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Every time i read a post about wannabe gankers being the "elite of the elite" it brings up a smile. Sorry that's simply not the case, most of the gankers have never been up to collaborate or organize with their realm, and as such were mainly marginal to a realm's success, sometimes even detrimental (like the goons that meet with their adversaries in external communication environments like irc and give them info on where to "avoid the zerg", info that can be passed around and used by their own zerg).

Skill can be found both in gank groups and in guilds that play in large numbers. Guild is the keyword. Ventrilo and people that play a lot together. Small numbers don't necessarily mean "skill". My guild often plays in full warbands in open RvR, but when we meet a gank group in scenarios with equal numbers we very often roll over them like they were a PUG.

Point in fact, gank groups in War DO exist. They simply are mostly in their rightful place. In scenarios. You find TONS of them in there.

Mythic did the right thing putting small group warfare mainly in it's own dedicated environment, and dedicating open field to the ones more willing to work with and organize their realm. Gankers don't get interrupted in their holy war against "the zerg", people that like to play in large numbers mainly don't get bitched at for interrupting it. Everyone is happy.

It's simpy silly (and biased) to associate "skill" only with gank groups, and the ones that do, normally never managed to lead large forces successfully (probably because of their elitism and lack of social skills, which is very common in gankers or wannabe gankers).
Twytch skill and small group coordination are important in scenarios, and social skill, leadership and organization are more important in open RvR. In a realm vs realm MMORPG it's hardly logical to say that the first two skills should be more important or rewarded than the others. It's REALM vs REALM, so maybe some hardcore gankers should get over their "oh my god i'm so uber" elitism, because it's quite outdated, and normally misplaced, and actually start working with their realm-mates.

This said, there's PLENTY room for gank groups willing to work with their realm (this is the keyword, if one isn't willing to work with his realm, why should he be successful in a REALM vs REALM game?) even in the outcome of open RvR. Good premades queuing for scenarios are indispensible to flip zones fast without waiting for zone domination to come into play. They have a key role in patroling, scouting and guarding Battlefield objectives from recapture, holding onto them until the rest of their realm mates arrives to relieve them. It's simply a matter of organization.

The key to successful RvR is the COLLABORATION between premade gank groups and the "zerg" that you guys continue to despise so much.
Go on with your elitism, and you will be marginalized. If that floats your boat, who am I to argue?

PS: Brooke: Just curious: do you even play warhammer? Because every post of yours about warhammer uses stock images picked up from the internet. One would imagine that any real warhammer online player would have tons of his own pictures from the game to use. Honestly reading this article it seems that you lack basic actual knowledge on how the game works and on the purposes and tasks gank groups can serve in it, for themselves and for their realm (and on the fact that there are PLENTY gank groups in the game).

Posted: Apr 28th 2009 7:04PM (Unverified) said

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Damn, I thought this WAR troll finally buggered off to a different game (Darkfail maybe?) but I guess I was wrong.

You can vomit all the paragraphs of text you want, but it's pretty obvious you haven't the slightest idea what you are talking about.
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Posted: Apr 28th 2009 12:23PM (Unverified) said

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Yes, I've also noticed this in WAR, where no matter how good a group is zerg always wins in RvR. I played DaoC for a while and i know what the old Gank groups were *shudder* i feared them because they could destroy groups of people. Back when skill and teamwork meant something right?

Posted: Apr 28th 2009 12:29PM Keen and Graev said

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It's a matter of scope.

WAR = Arcade PvP aimed at completing an overall objective.

DAOC = Methodical PvP aimed at each individual encounter.

These two games were each designed around their respective styles. You'll never see the return of 8-mans (which were different from "gank groups") in WAR because the game's design is not compatible.

Posted: Apr 28th 2009 3:21PM (Unverified) said

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'Where are all the gank groups'?

Where are all the players?

Posted: Apr 28th 2009 4:40PM Celestian said

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So you can't go around ganking people in a 6 person group because everyone is playing in large organized RVR and they "gank" you?

I don't see the problem.

Posted: Apr 28th 2009 5:02PM (Unverified) said

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"Large organized RvR" - ummm, yeah. More like a warband plus associated hangers-on moving from undefended objective to undefended objective to undefended keep and then on to the next undefended zone. It may be large and it may be organized, but it certainly isn't RvR.

And honestly, this entire discussion has been highjacked because of the dysphemistic use of the term "gank group" which some people here seem to equate with the highly organized, disciplined and specialized groups that operated in DAoC - a game many of you probably never even played.
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