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Reader Comments (29)

Posted: Apr 27th 2009 8:04PM engrey said

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RMT has some serious money to be made. From a study that was put out a month or two ago it showed the amount in dollars that the top MMOs have maid. I believe Maplestory was on the top along with the top number of users.

If done fairly and right RMT and groups like Live Gamer are taking a good step in the direction for possible RMT games to come out in the West.

However the idea here is that everyone is fair but even within the game we know this is not true. Many complain about gear and not having time to get it, yet everyone pays the same amount per month. So everyone has access to all of the content but some refuse to do it because of difficultly, time invested, and other factors.

RMT makes this all possible and makes the time invested worth something along with the money that can go back to the user if they wish to sell. Think of it more as accessory's rather then paying for the very best items.

However no developer in the west with try this idea which is ashame. It can be done right with ease it is just up to the consumer whether something new is worth trying.

Posted: Apr 27th 2009 8:05PM Joystiq Login Bugs SUCK said

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Whoa nellie, hold up there...

"Live Gamer is a company that aims to legitimize real money trading, creating a way for players to spend their cash"

Massively is blogging and supporting a Gold Farmer?

You do realise that not only do Gold Farmer's make baby pandas sad, but they are outlawed by many games.

Posted: Apr 27th 2009 8:47PM engrey said

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I hope you know the difference between a Gold Seller, Farmer, and what Live Gamer is trying to do.

Posted: Apr 27th 2009 8:59PM Joystiq Login Bugs SUCK said

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It's gold farming, a way for people with money to take the lazy way out and buy uber-elite top of the range gear while the normal person has to work hard.

I need to ask MCRaider... are you affiliated with this shady business?
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Posted: Apr 27th 2009 9:01PM (Unverified) said

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Could you explain those differences? Seems pretty much the same: selling in game gold/items for real money.
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Posted: Apr 27th 2009 10:10PM (Unverified) said

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Not seeing a big difference here. One guy has tattoos and carries a switchblade in his back pocket when he sells you gold, the other guy wears a suit and shakes your hand first.

They're both just filthy opportunists leeching money from an industry they give nothing back to.

RMT carries no actual gaming benefit for the player and loads of benefits for the company doing it.

Smart people know this.

Dumb people buy gold and tell you it's a legit business.
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Posted: Apr 27th 2009 9:27PM (Unverified) said

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"Take the lazy way out?" Seriously?

It's a video-game. Perhaps YOU see it as work, but I don't. Maybe you shouldn't worry so much about what other gamers are doing. You might enjoy yourself more.

Beau

Posted: Apr 27th 2009 10:13PM Joystiq Login Bugs SUCK said

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heh, if it were a single player game I couldn't give two hoots if you used cheat code, hacks and exploits to defeat the last boss, but an MMO is different.

You are playing with and against other real people.

When people spend thousands of real dollars to tweak every aspect of their character and then buy NOS and Pots out their wazoo other players will be put at a disadvantage.

Taken to the extreme these cash-foolish players are able to walk into that 2 hour spawn mob and take him out solo, denying the fun for the formed raid group. Or they can waltz into the PvP areas and one hit everyone, once again ruining other players fun.

It's not work, it's just common courtesy.
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Posted: Apr 28th 2009 6:33PM happyfish said

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What I find more outrageous than RMT is my 1-2 hours per day, or less, costs the same as someone who, according to Jay, isnt as lazy as me but has plenty of time to spend 10 hours a day in front of a game. The counter arguement to rich people shouldnt be able to buy cool stuff is people without jobs or dont take their studies very seriously shouldnt have exclusive access to end game gear.

I'm sure developers could find ways to integrate both play styles into an RMT system. Maybe their is one master item that has two forms, a form that can be bought and a form that has to be earned. I dont see this impacting PvE games but is probably harder to implement on PvP centric games.
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Posted: Apr 27th 2009 9:40PM engrey said

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Gold Farmer- A person on usually a high level character who goes and grinds monsters and items for gold. This is legit and no rules against making as much money as possible.

Gold Seller/RMT- For the seller to have gold there is usually a relation between the farming company and the selling company. A lot of the times these groups are different. Gold selling companies are borderline legit, or sometimes borderline criminal, depending on your definitions and their actions (and geographical locations and laws in those countries). Also gold selling breaks both EULA and the ToS since farming is allowed there is nothing that says you can not gain gold and trade it to someone else. However if you sell that gold for real money that is the problem.

RMT is the same idea as gold selling since thats what you are doing, real money transfer. You pay for a certain service or amount of an in game item such as gold, rep, ships and others.

I think of the word RMT being the more legit side to everything and more Maplestory or EvE then gold selling sites.

The way I see it is Live Gamer is trying to be the official go to site for everything RMT.

What Live Gamer is trying to do is work the developers from day one who either A.) Have a game built around RMT or B.) Don't have RMT but instead of being shady Live Gamer and those companies could work out a deal. People can then sell accounts, buy accounts, buy gold, items and other all legitimately without the company having a problem since they are getting a slice of that profit. I would see the selling of items like gold only for those dedicated games that run off RMT not games like WoW. If you could sell/buy a WoW account off Live Gamer it would slow the gold selling business since that money would either go to Blizz, you, or both.

What everyone has to remember though is that Gold Selling is a supply and demand game. If there is no demand then we would not have these kind of companies trying to rip you off.

Posted: Apr 27th 2009 10:08PM Joystiq Login Bugs SUCK said

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Wow, it really does sound like you are affiliated with these people the way you are defending them. I will asuume you work for them.

I played an RMT game for a while, until I realised that it was so unbalanced that the fun was sapped out of it. It was a game divided into those who could spend real money vs those who couldn't.

Then to make matters worse, it became a game where those who spent the most money won.

However it was a one way RMT game. You could only pay to get the equipment, you could not sell in order to get real cash.

I bet what your company has not thought about are the legal ramifications to this. By allowing a person to basically cash out the uber-elite item they won in a random loot drop you are actually enabling a gambling/lottery situation.

In many countries and USA states lotteries and gambling is illegal and lotteries are heavily regulated, a number of games in fact have had to change the way they did things so that they didn't fall foul of the law.

How is your gold farming company getting around these gambling laws in each market of the world?
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Posted: Apr 27th 2009 10:15PM (Unverified) said

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Jay, name that RMT game.

Beau

Posted: Apr 27th 2009 10:49PM Joystiq Login Bugs SUCK said

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Shaiya
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Posted: Apr 27th 2009 10:41PM engrey said

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I do not think gold farming is a bad thing, anyone who can play a game for 10-12 hours a day and just kill monsters to get loot and money well there is nothing wrong with that. Until it gets sold to a company who then sells it to the end user, then it is a problem.

The gold and in the biggest case WoW is only being removed from monsters and then bought for a price of real money. If I where to come up to you to trade and give you 5K gold would Blizz ban me? I doubt it. Since I am doing nothing wrong, I used my time to remove money from the game (monsters, dungeons) and disperse it to a user.

I do not approve of Gold Selling though, even though the companies (mostly in China) are legit for the region since they think of it as a real business to make real money which they do.

Either you do not see what Live Gamer is trying to do or you are just looking at the gold farming/selling idea. Live Gamer wants to change all of the common thinking of RMT.

In Asia RMT is huge and has been popular for ages it also brings in more money then monthly subs. People in the West do not accept RMT since the name gold seller/farmer is attached to it.

This is more about Live Gamer and what they can do with developers rather then just being another gold seller site. Also like I said the game has to be built for RMT for it to work, if not then adjusting and making a system takes to much time to keep everything fair.

Major MMO developers in the West have yet to come up with a good solution to using RMT for them to be profitable. Once they do or once a group like Live Gamer provides a legitimate way of doing business that the major developers can agree on without them breaking the TOS or EULA then it will work.

Posted: Apr 27th 2009 10:57PM Joystiq Login Bugs SUCK said

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If you came to me and said "Here is 500 gold I got from quest rewards, killing mobs, selling crafted items... can I buy that elite bow?" I would be happy. But your gold farming company is saying... we will allow you to buy the best equipment in the game, the best pots, the best food, the best NOS from us for real currency.

The rich then plonk down their US$2,000 and kit up to the disadvantage of other people who can't afford to waste US$2,000 on a game.

To make it worse the game then fractures further into the rich and the richer. Those spending US$5,000 a month can run faster, hit harder and kill the meager $2,000 a month players.

Don't laugh. It is happening.

The game becomes unbalanced and stops being fun.
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Posted: Apr 27th 2009 10:59PM (Unverified) said

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I have played that. You, by no means, are forced to buy items in order to get far in the game.

You need to play a few more of these games before you pass judgment so quickly. If you had played more, you would realize that cash shops/RMT is a simple choice. You can choose to participate or not.

Players in all the F2P games I have played (near 40 and counting) do not walk around moping about the fortunes of other players. They simply accept the fact that some people make choices they don't.

Now, please tell me I must work for a "gold selling company." I need a laugh. You have an issue with players getting something you might have "worked for" (although you actually did work. Be honest. You pushed buttons with some friends of yours. It is supposed to be fun, not work) by simply paying real life money for it. Just admit that it is an issue that you have with other players, not with other players having any issues with you.

Is it more important that you spent time pushing buttons, or that another player spent time making real life money?

Posted: Apr 27th 2009 11:23PM (Unverified) said

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What are "these games" you refer to? Wow? EQ? EQ2? Vanguard? FFXI? Those aren't F2P games, and weren't designed to include RMT. You seem to equate want with need.

Why push the buttons at all? Why play a game if you just want to cheat? Kind of takes the whole point of "game" away when you choose to be a cheat.

I agree with Jay, that MCRaider sounds a shill for Live Gamer.

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Posted: Apr 27th 2009 11:59PM (Unverified) said

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Your example only holds water if you think that all players want to play by YOUR rules.
Jay's example is one of gear, or equipment. In 99.9 percent of these games, that doesn't matter, and even in the very few PvP centric ones, the gear can be matched by items you can play for.

He would know this if he actually played more than one of the cash shop/RMT games.

There are a million ways to play ANY mmo. You cannot name me a single MMO that has one singular goal. You can name me some SITUATIONS that might require certain types of gear, items, or play-styles, but that is a choice a player makes.

I don't raid. I think spending hours and hours doing the same thing over and over again is not challenging, but simply repetition. But how is it that so many players place value on the gear and the event? How is it possible that I can play the same game as them and still get to the same max level, and have the same amount of fun?

Because, like I said, there are no hard fast rules in these games. In games with no rules, there is no cheating.

And no, we are not talking about hacks or the like. We all know that is doing something that the game would never normally allow. Buying a horse or a pretty pink dress is perfectly legit.

Like I have said a million times in a million places, this is about one group of players being upset that they feel that their experience has been devalued. But the problem with that is that what one player does has no bearing at all on your fun. The mobs are endless, the items are endless.

Name me one MMO that has a single item in it that only one player can have. You can't. Items are not special...let people buy them if they don't have the time to spend 7 hours a night raiding after them, or if they want to buy something that makes their character look good. I guarantee that all the items that Jay feels he "worked" for are worn by hundreds, if not thousands of players. They are not unique or rare.

Beau Turkey

Posted: Apr 28th 2009 1:41AM Joystiq Login Bugs SUCK said

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You completely glossed over my mention of NOS, Food and Pots didn't you? You then went on to discount my entire opinion as I have only played one RMT game (deciding after doing it never to try another)

So let's take that game.

PvP players are able to purchase Sprint Lapis and Linking Hammers, NOS and icecream that lets them Crit 100% of shots, lessen hit times, hit harder, lose power slower, run even faster. These NOS can then be stacked. But they are expensive.

The game forums, and everyone is welcome to go look, are full of comments about the NOS'ed up darkies who are able to one-hit everyone or the NOS'ed up tanks who can't be taken down.

Is that fun? Is that how we really need to see MMO's go... to a state where they stack the odds to really favour those who are willing to pay a lot of money?

Do we really want to see a world of MMO's where the developers are so intent on earning their micro-transaction loot from selling XP advancment potions that they make endlessly increasing grinding the only other alternative.... 3 or 4,000 mobs to advance a level in the mid's and tens of thousands of mobs in the upper (unless you use Xp Pots)

No thanks.

So fine, your real life doesn't let you play the game to the level an addicted, full time, hard core gamer can, so you think that if you can buy his gear for real world cash you will be just as happy... but then what about all the other people who do the same... or can afford to buy better gear... and use that gear to more efficiently clear the room you are trying to take down strategically or kill you unfairly in PvP or take down that group boss by themselves, farming it over and over and denying you the chance?

Then we get the gold farmers like this company who are actually trying to bring this business model in from Asia (the home of gold farming) to the rest of the world.
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Posted: Apr 27th 2009 11:51PM Dblade said

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The problem with RMT is that quite simply the more it becomes "legit" and accepted in games not designed for it, the more those games get destabilized through massive inflation. Whether or not live gamer redirects profits to companies or not, that RMT will really underciut the ethos of the game.

Live gamer could actually harm games because by giving the developing company a cut of the proceeds, you are forcing them to sanction rmt. If FFXI did that, the backlash would be so severe as to cripple the game. We lived through the heyday of RMT when both the ingame economy suffered from hyperinflation and farming and crafts were contested by gilfarmers at every turn.

FFXI solved it by changing the game. Yes, its still a huge undertaking to get the best of the best, but remove RMT's presence as well as prevent items from being choke pointed into undue scarcity while still being rare and the game works.

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