The Daily Grind: Does a game need PvP to be successful?

The ONLY problem with PvP in games is people's delicate egos. They cry and whine when they get beat, especially in a one on one situation. Players need to realize that there are consequences to choosing a class in an MMORPG, and developers need to stick to their guns.

Trying to balance every class to perform well against every other class is what drives everyone crazy. All the QQ in World of Warcraft isn't from people who are just trying to not get ganked on a PvP server while solo questing, despite their claims. It's from the people who try to solo everyone in a battleground or arena.

As soon as people start realizing that PvP is a team concept in most games, PvP will be a lot better.

No PVP is not needed to be a good mmo. For me for example i prefer 1 aspect of a MMO and go about that exclusivly. For example i hate WoW PVP with a passion, i hate how its a DPS race and Resilence stacking and crap like that and i dont consider it real PVP. However i do enjoy WOW Raiding and hence why i play, but i always wonder how much better the raiding would be if PVP wasnt in the game and the focus was PVE, how many more raids and how thought out it could be and other PvE content such as hard mode heroics and such. Now for WAR for example i hate the PvE i find it boring and not to much fun, but on the PVP or rather RVR side of things i LOVE it and find it very enjoyable.

In the end if you do one well then people wont care as much if the other is missing, they would most likely play the game with the opposite thing.

That's easy.... Does a bear sh*t in the woods?

In your normal everyday RPG where PVE is tank, dps, and heal I would say yes, pvp is very much needed. Really old models need something engaging to keep people interested.

If you had a polished, well done MMO with a new model approach to PVE rather than the generations old and tired, tank, dps, and heal, I believe it could be very successful, if it was good of course.

Yes a good overall MMORPG needs to have PvP. But NOT the PvP the hardcore guys think what PvP should be.

Full loot? No of course not, Harsh death penalties ? No of course not.

PvP is there as a second game within the world. But you adventure in the world to have fun and have a play value but not to being killed 26 times a day.

Besides only Wow has decent animated and fluid PvP actions. The other mmorpg's lack seriously in these game mechanics.

PvP players tend to keep playing longer than PVE based players as content is so difficult and takes so long to develop.

A pure PVE based game would bore me to death though after 6 months.

Wow has the perfect balance (free PvP in BG's, good competitive PvP in arena (and far more balanced than people think), open world PvP in City Raids and now the massively played Wintergrasp).

I do search for PvP gear more than Pve gear and I always walk around in PvP gear, so yes Wow without PvP would kill the game for me.

sidenote: War/Aoc/Lotro lack in PvP simply because I don't have any avatar control like I have in Wow.

*places soapbox on the ground and steps onto it...*

Many folks have alluded to the need for extremes, one way or the other in wishes or wish nots for pvp ingame. You do not need extremes to make a game enjoyable and pulse rushing at the same time, a small fact that will keep any game fresh.

A few folks have alluded to the WOW gear grind, its boring, its poorly done pvp and the the truth of the matter is the devs are not talented enough or to scared to address anything pvp related. To you wow devs i will call you stock related cowards, as it fits.

We then have the EVE style of pvp, Lord of the Flies, no consequence, rl mechanics to gain advantage and nothing ingame to counter that rl advantage. The CCP devs being to afraid in this case to change mechanics feeling they will lose more players than they gain, again, no vision, no balls.

Darkfall, which i havent played but read the forums is in a custody battle currently, the devs stating we have consequence to control asshat idiots, seeing this last patch they did do something toward that goal, it isnt near enough, this one at least seems to be doing something with consequence.

Open PvP in game will keep it fresh, alive and dynamic, something many grind MMO"S fail to do (this fits nearly all MMO"s currently). What is so hard about consequence in a game and pleasing the majority of your playerbase? nothing, it more than likely boils down to idiots in charge, devs included that are to politically correct trying not to offend anyones feelings, most likely lawyers. I call it weakness of vision and most certainly no willingness to just tell these people they dont pay the bills, huge sub counts do.

Want a game where its open pvp anytime? open looting? Consequence for actions worth a damn? where casuals and hardcore folks can live together in harmony and both types of play share the same level of excitement? Among a host of other wants that devs could do but choose not to at this time.

In the future this game may come around, but only after the old guard of devs is dead and gone and folks with vision and enough talent step up and shove political correctness in a dark recess and tell superiors to get screwed when needed, until this happens nothing will change..............

Well maybe if weak minded folks also stop paying subs to garbage games encouraging this dev behaviour, but that wont happen anytime soon. As for success, that word holds no meaning whatsoever with or without pvp when used in the same sentence with the term MMO. Maybe in the far future that will change.

I read a story once, slightly diff subject. I have modified it slightly to fit the MMO genre and this subject.

A hardcore pvp MMO player and a carebear MMO player are on a train together. The carebear player has the aisle seat, taking his shoes off the carebear player settles in, the hardcore player says he wants a coke and begins to get up, the carebear player tells the hardcore player to stay seated, he will get the coke since he has the aisle seat. When the carebear player leaves the hardcore player reaches down and spits in the carebear players shoes. Returning the hardcore player is smiling and thanks the carebear player for the coke, they both sit back and enjoy the train ride. Arriving at their destination the carebear player slips on his shoes and realizes what has happened, leaning over to the hardcore player he whispers in a stern voice......

"why must this go on? This hatred of playstyles in a game, the constant name calling, the spitting in shoes and pissing in cokes".

*chuckle*

Guild Wars has, from what I've read, excellent PvP. After all, the games are called "Guild Wars", where you get to battle other individuals, or your guild battles other guilds. PvP is in a different place from the rest of the game, mostly. If you are a PvE sort of person, you never have to run into PvP. You also can get right into the PvP part - build a special character for PvP.

The way I think about it - the PvP part of Guld Wars funds the part of Guild Wars that I love - the PvE part. To me, that's darn near perfect!

In the Alliance (group of Guilds) I'm in, some of us use the guild halls for guild and alliance battles - it's part of the game. We also use our guild galls as places to meet each other and socialize. "Guild hall" is a misnomer - each guild hall is a whole little island. This works for me - another way that the PvP part has stuff in it that works for those of us who want to use our Guild Halls for other things. Again, I think that's perfect.

As a Ultima Online wanderer, I can saw that most of us Vets try and grapple with this argument all the time in MMOs.

What most of us have concluded is that PvP is only useful and done right when you have a "'generic item game" IE: most of the weapons\armor are generic, so losing them on death is nothing special. Designer Dragon was a Designer for Ultima Online along with Richard Garriot, but DD was the true brains behind the whole thing and he has written whole treatises on this very subject.

It has to be Risk vs Reward. In games like LOTRO, the risk the repair bill and the time.

If you want to make a PvP game, you have to have risk and it has to be more than simply dying and getting booted back to the rez stone.

If a game is not willing to put in risk, don't try and make a PvP game. PvE games are just fine. I play DDO when I am not playing Darkfall Online. I love PvE. I also live the PvP drama of EVE and DFO.

The other key element is housing and towns. What Made UO so great was player housing and what makes DFO great is the vastness of the world and the town system , like EVE with the star system idea.

Its not the act of PvP that makes things great. Its the drama between guilds.

There is so much more, but I agree with many of the above people. Don't' try and force PvP because you feel you need it. Do it right or don't do it at all. make a nice dueling system and focus on PvE content.

If you'd asked me 5 years ago, I would have said no. Today, I've gotta say yes.

I define success by maintaining a core following for over 4 years. Look at every game, every free 2 play, they've got some kind of PvP. Back in the day, we had PvP servers, now we have regular servers with PvP and then servers with more PvP.