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Posted: Apr 8th 2009 8:51AM (Unverified) said

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Honestly, I don't think I can agree with any of the three major points brought up in this article. I wish I could as the article is well written and the author has clearly given this some serious thought. But the points he chooses to make are remarkably weak. The only somewhat strong point he makes is in regards to the familiarity of the fantasy genre and the mythology it represents. Even that is easily bested by the modern mythologies of Star Wars and Star Trek, which many if not most people in western cultures would more readily recognize than say, Norse Mythology.

An easy example would be to ask the average man on the street "Who is Obi Wan Kenobi?" and "Who is Gandalf"? I guarantee you that more people will be able to tell you who Obi Wan is than Gandalf, despite both characters being essentially the same thing. (in a literary sense) and both being part of very famous modern mythology franchises.

However, I will concede that fantasy is more accessible in the sense that it is easier for the average person to imagine themselves wielding a sword while wearing armor than it is to imagine themselves flying a spaceship. Heck, I could go out and rent some armor and a sword right now if I wanted. A spaceship? not so much. So that point is conceded, but only partially.

The rest of the points are pedantic and weak. Naming conventions? As other posters have pointed out, Fantasy naming conventions are just as poor and nonsensical. Complexity? Have you ever heard of Earth and Beyond? Not only did it have a great name (very easily implies space travel) but it had a simple and intuitive skills/class/race system that was, in many respects, easier than the WoW one. The interface was well designed (for it's day) and simple to use, and the progression was logical and easy to understand. Crafting was available and plentiful, and one could level up steadily without getting bored. Essentially, EnB was Everquest or WoW, in space. We can all see how well THAT concept did.

Where EnB failed is where most MMO's fail. There wasn't a compelling End Game for people that advanced quickly, and advancement was too easy and too grind-oriented. In the end, most of the players ground through the game in 3 months, got bored and quit. Without a PVP-Centric End Game where other players bring the challenge, re-rolling a new character was just an invitation to run through the same incomplete backstory from a slightly different POV. To put it another way, the Strengths of Fantasy MMO's are precisely the weaknesses of Sci-Fi MMO's. To try to make a Fantasy MMO set is space is to invite the EnB curse.

Posted: Apr 8th 2009 10:29AM (Unverified) said

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I loved EnB but it was a repetitive grind with no real end in sight.
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Posted: Apr 8th 2009 9:05AM (Unverified) said

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Existentialist - We want EVE on the ground, like SWG used to be.

Exactly. That's exactly what we want - no walls, genuine economy, real penalties for failure, competitive world and the ability to not play some Everquest-derived role (buffer, nuker, tank, etc...). Most post SWG MMOs play like single player grinding games with groups tacked on.

Posted: Apr 8th 2009 9:56AM (Unverified) said

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It is always interesting to me to see that any article or conversation about Sci Fi MMO's always turns to SWG and the pre-CU and pre-NGE system.

I just wish that the person in charge of the dollars would someday read and understand that the skill based system that was SWG in late beta and at launch was revolutionary, innovative and simply put, amazing.

This type of system is exactly what MMO players want. We want the ability to customize our character not just in appearance but down to the minute level. You know why that skill system was great? Because no 2 bounty hunters had to be the same. Sure they required the same basic skills but then they had the freedom to reach past those requirements and tailor their character. On top of that, it was Star Wars!!!

If I were a rich man I would find the original dev team for SWG, the guys who came in and hung out with us in beta and laughed and tested and actually played the game they were making. I would hire those guys, storm Skywalker ranch and demand (ok beg and plead) that Lucas back a real Star Wars MMO created by people who love the movies, people who play MMO games, people who could care less about the almighty dollar but instead have a fantasy deep inside them. A fantasy of spaceships, wizards, heroes, incredible creatures, damsels in distress and silly robotic sidekicks.

Sci FI MMO games aren't struggling because of the genre, they struggle because they are viewed as products with a bottom line rather than works of art.

But then, that is the case with most games today and not exclusive to MMO's.

Posted: Apr 8th 2009 12:03PM Temploiter said

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I couldn't agree more, but there are too many in the industry and commenting about the industry (like this author) that see complexity and breadth as a negativity. Hey, right about now 90% of MMOs, or at least 90% of the MMO market is dominated by very simple linear MMOs... is there NO room for something more? Why keep beating the same drum? How many AAA titles following the advice of commentators and WOW's dollars need to fail before other models are tried or retried?
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Posted: Apr 8th 2009 12:17PM (Unverified) said

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The original incarnation of SWG had its faults, but it was without any doubt the most open sandbox environment I have ever encountered. It let you as the player tell your story, rather than making you run from NPC to NPC to run down their individual narrative railroads each in turn.

The problem with SWG is that it required you to *think*, and the majority of MMO players are either unequipped to do so, or uninclined to do so - just look at the success of WOW, possibly the shallowest and most unenjoyable MMO I have tried so far (well, no thats AOC). With SWG you had to have a feel for the world you found yourself in and be willing to participate in it.

I started the game on day 1 (well, day 2 as day 1 no one could log in because the servers were borked). I looked at the extensive list of character options (you can't really call it a class system per se, it was better than that), and decided I was going to focus on crafting droids. You may laugh but I had more fun attempting to be successful in that roll and in that environment than I have had in any games since. By the end of my time in SWG, I had mastered over 19 different professions on that character (and not due to trying to unlock jedi, I never had any interest in being a jedi), because I wanted to try the system out and it was that flexible. Tired of being a Bounty Hunter? Drop some BH skills and start leveling up as a Creature Handler. You could make the switch in a few hours to days if you played effectively.
Pre-CU SWG had the hands down best character design system of any MMO before or since. I really don't think you can argue that point with any hope of winning. It was breathtakingly ambitious and if the skills involved needed work and there were many bugs to the game that needed addressing, it was still all good.

The CU bollocked up the whole thing by introducing levels, and while that made it simpler to explain to people and simpler for players from other more limited games to understand, it also made a shift in the game that was an indicator of the horrible betrayal that was to come.

The NGE completely gutted the game and replaced with something I am not even sure qualified as an MMO. Its only evolved since then but its still an utter POS by comparison to what they had.

Why did they inflict the CU and the NGE on their unfortunate playerbase? Because the executives put in charge of the game *didn't get it*. They didn't see its potential, didn't see its strengths, and didn't see what needed to be done.

Instead the saw the profit margins of Blizzard with World of Warcraft and decided their players were just as stupid as Blizzards and would settle for just as low quality a game (yeah, I don't give it much of a break, sorry). Well, the players weren't and wouldn't and they left in droves (ie several hundred thousand cancellations in a week or so I imagine). Did SOE wake up to this? No they announced there was no going back, making the execs in charge the stupidest and most blindly confident individuals in the industry, and ones who really did deserve to be lined up against the corporate wall and shot.

If the people designing and maintaining the game, and the executives administering it don't understand the genre, don't understand their product and don't understand their audience then the game *will* fail, period. I think one of the biggest problems is that game companies still have a lot of misplaced executives who think this industry is just like any other. Well, folks, its not Widgets Online.

Posted: Apr 8th 2009 1:20PM (Unverified) said

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Temploiter and Warren are dead on. SWG was one of the best games ever I have ever played. Games like WoW are very easy to get in to. They take 0 learning curve until you get to the end game. If you don't like the playstyle of your character in WoW you have to start over.

SWG was not as intuitive but you could start playing from day one and if you made a mistake in your characters configuration it was fixable. It was more complex which made it interesting for people that enjoyed getting delving into the minutiae. I didn't feel like I was being punished when I wanted to change my character.

If we were doing base demolitions and we needed a different profession I could change, assuming I new in advance and could grind out the XP.

SWG also had a much better community than any I every played. There were real rivalries and real alliances made. If I angered the best weaponsmith on my server they could ban me from their shops and I had to find some one else.

The list of how in depth SWG was pre-CU is endless. I have spent the years since then looking for a game that will offer me the same thing and to this day I still have not found one. I am still hoping that some day one will come along.
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Posted: Apr 8th 2009 5:05PM Psychotic Storm said

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as a player who doesn't care about star wars (yes stormtroopers were nice, so was boba fet and... well that's about all there is to it for me I guess), why not use original IP for once, startrek, stargate, its old, yes they do have some fans but what are you going to play in these limiting IP's? sure they will get some steady player base, but then what? I would certainly not touch SW, ST, SG, I don't see any point in them, not much chance to play something your own since everything must be governed by IP and no chance to see a plot line unfolding since the IP will dictate it.

I will say again that game developers just don't get science fiction, what players expect and what and how it should behave, players will and do relate science fiction with normal life and usually expect to see this in a more advanced way, since none of us has a class, why should the game have, occupations, with skill based prerequisites I understand and it seems normal, but why a human should stay a heavy weapons specialist for the rest of his life for example why not allow the player to take up science or engineering for example and explore another profession, if the player learned basic bioengineering for example, he or she could apply for medic or since he already has combat skills he could also be allowed to apply for combat medic, same goes with experience, I definitely do not get better at healing others, when I kill something, why should the character be, or be able to learn it in the first place, if I ever wanted to learn first aid, I would take up a course and learn how to do it, why can't the characters get mini quests and acquire (or level) the skill through them? and (a minor personal thing) why can't the characters can't have minor appearance changes? I can grow or comb hair, change colour to them ectr, why my character must stay always the same?

as far as environment goes, I believe most people relate to our own present environment, sure a jungle once in a while is nice, but I believe most expect to encounter heavily populated and build up areas more frequently than big lush jungles and never ending forests, expect to see many vehicles and be able to interact with many of them too, expect to be able to buy equipment and not have odd level restrictions in them, jokingly wouldn't you find odd to hear the salesman say to you "sorry that 360 wireless controller is too high level for you, come back when you get at least two levels in xbox 360"? and combat should behave in par with modern, yes I do know 40k I am an old player and still play, but I view it as a space opera and leave it at that, why on emperors name would a space marine want to go hand to hand with anything if he can use cover and the ranged weaponry he is provided with is beyond me, past of course that the 40k universe is heroic and larger than life so close and personal confrontation highlights this, but it looks odd or even stupid to people that are either unfamiliar with the setting or value realism first, shooting should get the biggest part of combat, with close combat been a minor but deadly part of it, stealth can indeed result to it, but I would expect a stealth agent to be a one hit kill type of close combat specialist and only on single isolated targets, not the type of melee specialist that can take a small squad alone in hand to hand.

since I am in combat and environment, I need to add that if the setting revolves around a war, the players should expect a combined arms style environment with vehicles of all types been present and masses of infantry, 10 troopers in a trench, or in the forest, do not a battle make.

one last thing is that the "hero of the setting" while appealing in fantasy is not something that looks good in science fiction.

sorry for the lack of coherency in my thoughts.

Posted: Apr 10th 2009 4:29PM (Unverified) said

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I believe the company that created WoW and its 11 million subscriber base could do it again with another well known IP. World of Starcraft!! Why those greedy bastards aren't working on this right now, I don't know, but this would be the ultimate WoW in space. Maybe they'll read this, LOL!

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