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Reader Comments (25)

Posted: Mar 28th 2009 8:03AM Wgraves said

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in my experience its a game until its a grind....

Posted: Mar 28th 2009 8:37AM (Unverified) said

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The less the better.

Posted: Mar 28th 2009 9:19AM Pingles said

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I have recently hopped between several games looking for an MMO to keep my attention and have found that graphics, animation and programming can have a big effect on "grind" for me.

Both LOTRO and CoH were tortuous for me but I have found that knocking out 100+ mobs for Public Quests in Warhammer to be far more satisfying only because the mobs are so much more fun to kill.

Whether it's Goblins saying "Not in the FACE!" as I hammer away at them or even the Human characters and their great death animations I enjoy the battles far more even though in all three games it's just 4 or 5 buttons being mashed.

Warhammer has gotten me in its grip.

Posted: Mar 28th 2009 9:39AM (Unverified) said

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I remember doing a quest on WoW in STV where i had to get 15 troll ears but ther drop rate was terrble i think i was there for 2 days I believe that is to much grind

Posted: Mar 28th 2009 9:44AM Holgranth said

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To me its not how big the gring its how well the grind is disguised. Last night I finally bothered doing a few quest chains in Wrath I had previously ignored. They were ALL doing things I'd done a million times before, kill X mobs, interact with Item Y, save Npc Z, and so on a BUT it didn't feel that way because of the way it was EXTREMELY well written with an awsome story line and some hilarious and tragic characters.

I didn't even notice that I got that character 1/4 of the way from 79 to 80 untill I had finished.

Posted: Mar 28th 2009 10:48AM (Unverified) said

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I don't mind the grind sometimes, as long as it is with a group, or in small intervals. I can't stand to grind for more than an hour or two. Darkfall has a lot of grinding to it, which is why its important for you to just play how you want, and don't let anybody tell you what you need to do.

Posted: Mar 29th 2009 11:36AM (Unverified) said

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I think grinding is a result of impatience and we bring it upon ourselves... For example; I was rank 34.5 and I had a great sword I could only wear at 35. I found some mobs that gave me 2k exp a pop. I killed some for 30 minutes than decided to try scens to see if the exp gain was faster. After getting rolled in them three times, I concluded that grinding the 2k mobs was quickest so I "ground(?)" them for another hour and a half. Oh was I was satisfied when I dinged!
Long story short, we only grind because we want stuff quick and the grinding method is the quickest in certain cases. My trick; play the game for what its worth... In other words, do what the game has to offer. It's a lot more pleasurable and you don't have to worry about grinding.

Posted: Mar 28th 2009 11:23AM (Unverified) said

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I dont mind grinds as long as they are broken up. I played wow for 2 years and really enjoyed the leveling and endgame content. I got burnt out on the endgame treadmill and left 3 months ago.

My character was one of the higher maintanence classes. Just to have the resources to raid, which we did 3 nights a week, i would have to put in at least 10 hours of mindless repetition. If you add in the almost manditory rep grinds. I was putting in way more hours doing things i felt i had to do to be able to do the things i wanted to do.

I really wanted to do more battlegrounds and and level an alt, but i didn't have time to do it. The sad part was i was really spending tons of time in game.

I went to lotro for something to fill my evenings. I really don't like to sit like a vegetable infront of the tv. I was going to play it really casual and explore the tolkien world.

That all stopped last week. I like the deed/trait system. Well, untill i hit 45, i was catching up on some of my deeds. I had to kill 120/240 salamanders and 120/240 worms for two traits i needed. What idiot thought it would be fun to hang around in one area and kill 360 of one thing? Honestly, what idiot thought it would be so awesome that you had to do it back to back? When it dawned on me that before i could move on i had to kill 740 things standing in two places, I decided to leave lotro.

Posted: Mar 28th 2009 11:45AM (Unverified) said

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It's funny you should mention that, because I feel exactly the same way.

I struggle to imagine a gaggle of designers at Turbine sitting around a table in a meeting room and deciding that 740 (and in some cases, over 1000) repetitious actions in the same area or on the same mob is 'what a paying player would want to do'.

Are they mental?

The thing is, some staunch defenders will say "oh well - you don't *have* to do the deeds in lotro!"; but remember, deeds are the equivalent of the Talent tree in WoW, or the TP's in RoM, or the Skill Points in GW etc etc..
So in order to fully utilise and customize your character in lotro: Yes, you have to do the deeds.

I've recently left lotro, which is a shame as I love the environments ingame, I love the majority of the gameplay mechanics, and I especially like the ingame community.
However, recent sweeping changes to the game in an attempt to make it more 'mass appeal', plus more utterly ridiculous mindless grind-a-thons to get deeds, meant I had to unsubscribe due to not wanting to actually pay for something that is un-fun for me.

Once again, I go back to that table of developers deciding trait content, and say to them:
"Did you actually remember to bring your brain to work today?"

:S
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Posted: Mar 28th 2009 11:51AM (Unverified) said

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LOL at my math skills >.
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Posted: Mar 28th 2009 12:59PM Kaio said

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I used to be the kind of person to say the less grind the better until I played Guild Wars. Once you hit level 20 and get skills for your build it just doesnt feel like you accomplished much to me.

Posted: Mar 28th 2009 1:15PM (Unverified) said

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That's because there is a grind in Guild Wars. It's called Titles. Sure you don't have to get the titles or farm gold for the prestige armor, but once you complete all the campaigns, there's not much else to do aside from pvp.
Guild Wars has a horrific grind disguised in the form of achieving titles, but still, everyone pushes to try to be 'A God Walking Amongst Mere Mortals.'
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Posted: Mar 28th 2009 2:25PM (Unverified) said

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When its a grind, I quit, unless my friends are still wanting to grind it. There isn't an mmo on the market that doesn't have a grind. I'm waiting for SWTOR, since the storylines in all mmo's.....suck.

Posted: Mar 28th 2009 2:33PM Dblade said

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I think its when it gets to the point where you have to grind. You don't particularly want to grind, but you need to go and farm gil to replenish your stacks of bullets so you can go out and do the things you want to do. Or you need to go and get hundreds of yagudo necklaces to get enough fame to do the quest for utsusemi: ichi. Or you need to spend 80 hours camping a notorious monster to finally get 1 success after 20 attempts.

When its things you have to do but not really want or like to, either due to game design or player expectations, its a grind. But if its something you like, even if its the same thing as above, it isn't.

Posted: Mar 28th 2009 3:29PM Mr A said

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Let me put it this way. I was playing Ether Saga and enjoying it. Then I got a quest where I had to kill 99 of a particular monster. I haven't been back since.

Posted: Mar 28th 2009 3:57PM Ozewa said

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How much is too much?
I'd say skill grinding to dual transcender skill level on cabal was a tad overboard. And definately the later level grinding (level 125+).
In WoW, the worst grind I can think of is the mount gold grind.
Yes, the first one is cheap, usually takes most of the gold a level 30 person has.
Then there is the epic mount. Took me 16 hours to to get the gold for that when I hit 60. Was 500 gold or so.
Then there is the flying mount which costs 900 gold altogether which took me 3 days at 70.
Then there is the cold weather flying charge which costs 1000g at 77, which allows you to use the flying skill you have already used in a new zone.
Then there is the epic flying skill which costs a whopping 5000g (+200g for an actual mount).
So far, for gold grinding, we're up to 7639g PER character at max level.
It was a grind at level 70, it is a grind at level 80.
Especially considering that the main reason blizzard does this is to take money out of the economy, but they have plenty of other methods for doing that, AND they would take more money out of the economy if it was cheaper (say 3800g for all of it).

Most crafting systems are an UNHOLY PAIN IN THE READ to grind.
Notably Cabal, FFXI, most koren MMOs.

Posted: Mar 28th 2009 6:46PM SkuzBukit said

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I recently started playing Atlantica Online & am hitting the upper 60's levels & it is right about now that the "grind" feeling is making itself known, the quests up till now have been very similar but the story flowing through them was quite engaging, however it is now that the story is starting to be less & less interesting as the feeling I am just repeating the same old pattern again and again, & I have another 30 levels to grind that will be slower than the last 30 by far until I can try out "personal dungeons", so it feels like the game was stretched over far too many levels right now & it's already become repetitive.

So I decided to take a break from that grind & try out Runes of Magic.

Hmmmm, well I like tradeskilling in EQ2 & this looked to have a quite involved tradeskill system, but the balance of effort versus return is way off the mark, you need to spend an inordinate amount of time farming the raw materials, then refining them, then making them into something that you are already past finding it useful.

By the time you've reached level 10 you've farmed enough components to have reached level 3 in a tradeskill, so the time spent farming ends up being pretty much worthless, my hope is that nodes return more materials are are in much more plentiful supply later on & items dont require such large amounts of materials to make later on so it eentually becomes more of a worthwhile excercise.

So farming tradeskill parts feels very very grindsome early on at least.

Using those as examples, I guess what the earlier comment says is true, "how well you disguise" the grind, though I would say it's how entertaining it is made that matters.

Posted: Mar 29th 2009 12:49PM (Unverified) said

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I also played Atlantica Online for a period. I got to level 98 before I finally quit, because the quests were making me killing a mob several times for drops. Turn it in, then I have to kill the same mob for a different drop, turn it in, etc. At least in Atlantica, even if my main didn't level quickly, I still had 8 other mercs that were lower level that leveled quicker and didn't feel as grindy.

I'm playing RoM at the moment, as well. I'm 23/23 Knight/Warrior, and I have to say I've never really put time into the crafting system simply because it's rarely worth it. You can make so much more money from farming the materials and selling them on the auction house or saving them for your elite skills. Otherwise, the game doesn't feel too grindy as of yet, because the quests are all close together and overlap so you can kill 1 mob and complete 2 quests and you're already half a level. But we'll see once/if I get further in level. =D
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Posted: Mar 28th 2009 8:19PM (Unverified) said

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I quit anarchyonline for many reasons, but one of them was the fact that at my rate of play (5-7 hours a day) I wasnt going to level up again for another 3 months.

I still miss that game though... :/

Posted: Mar 28th 2009 11:15PM (Unverified) said

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One thing that's always bothered me about grinding is the Random Number Generator. Sure probability will give you your drops eventually (although theoretically this could be almost forever) but there's nothing to say that you won't be killing 100s of mobs if you happen to hit an unlucky streak.

I thought going through Northrend was a lot smoother in the grinding parts and a WoW (Jeff Kaplan) designer has just mentioned Wrath's progressive drop rate function with a standard drop rate of 45% which increases for every new mob you kill until you eventually reach 100% where you always get a drop.

You can of course still get unlucky and grind it out until you reach 100%, but the grinding quests have been a lot quicker than the old days and sequenced better.




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