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Reader Comments (24)

Posted: Jan 2nd 2009 11:00AM (Unverified) said

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You took the words right out of my brain. Stop it! =P

I don't know how many times I have been saying to myself and my friends how MMOs of today seem to feel more like a job than anything enjoyable. All I ask is the same enjoyment from a FPS style game (just an example) to be the same experience when playing an RPG. Make the killing action worthy of being repeated over and over again without getting boring by the grind of it all. Implement a system without level already. Make skills level up based on what you do and don't create a max limit, just make it extremely hard at a certain stage.

I could go on and on.
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Posted: Jan 2nd 2009 11:05AM arnavdesai said

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I am sorry you and I must have played two different versions of WoW cause I think you said that it was grind based. Are you kidding me? I played that game till level 63 and I have could not believe how much grind was there. Only two types of quests exist in the world(not instance) kill x no. of things or kill x no. of things and get x no. of items. The only thing different was the area in which I was asked to do it. Jeez!! In fact, its popularity and appeal makes it a dangerous precedent for all the aliments you mentioned in your blog. Hope they stick to it .
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Posted: Jan 2nd 2009 11:48AM (Unverified) said

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Not to continue beating my favorite dead horse but....
Why has no one incorperated the asherons call 1 leveling system? Where instead of each level getting some fancy new fireball as you level you gain skill points and use them to adjust your characters abilities. Hell I don't even think I remember what level I was when I quit, it wasn't about leveling!
On the same note in ac the quests you did were usually a very specific line working towards a super nice item, they were not the entire spine of the game. I had more fun pointing myself in a random direction and killing everything between me and the ocean than I have had since in any game.
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Posted: Jan 2nd 2009 8:38PM Seraphina Brennan said

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You, my friend, get today's gold star comment for remembering Asheron's Call and actually liking the leveling system in it. I thought that was one of the most brilliant systems in any game (just like I loved the original "experimental/economic" spell casting system that allowed you to find your own spells) and I wish it would come back into an MMO. Probably thrown away for being "too complex."

Then again, if you look, you'll notice that Fable 1 and 2 have a derivative of that system. :D Strength, Skill, Will, and General experience anyone?
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Posted: Jan 2nd 2009 12:12PM (Unverified) said

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Leveling content is more important than endgame content.
------------------------------------

Are you kidding me? Both are important, but endgame is where most players will spend most of their time. Its the DESTINATION.

According to your logic, its the plane ride thas important, not the travel location.

EVERY SINGLE MMO with no endgame, or incomplete endgame has failed or done miserably. ASk yourself why that is so. WHy would anyone bother to play a game if they know the final destination is crap?

Your list stink fyi. There are plenty of things that need fixing, and you list very very few.

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Posted: Jan 2nd 2009 1:49PM (Unverified) said

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I actually think that's pretty on point. Warhammer and Conan were attrociously boring games for me leveling up...which is why I quit before max level. If you don't have something that hooks you early on, it doesn't matter what's going on endgame.
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Posted: Jan 2nd 2009 2:37PM (Unverified) said

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I beg to differ, tbone, but you're quite wrong. Not EVERY SINGLE MMO with no endgame has failed. Case in point? City of Heroes. To this day there still isn't a very rich endgame in that MMO, and yet the game continues to thrive. In fact, of all the MMO's out there only a few of them spring to my mind when I think of "endgame" content (using the definition of "endgame" as something being radically different from leveling content - namely raiding).

The argument can certainly be made that the most popular MMO ever has a complex endgame that involves raiding, but it wasn't always like that by any means. The initial player base for WoW was built on a game that had, as you put it, "an incomplete endgame." The Molten Core was all Wow Had to offer until about nine months after the game came out. Last time I checked, that lack of endgame content doesn't seem to have hurt their numbers during those first nine months.
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Posted: Jan 3rd 2009 11:13AM ultimateq said

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I'd rather "grind myself silly" through generic leveling content, and have loads of endgame. I'll generally spend more time in endgame with a character that I like, rather than leveling 15 characters.

And I also hate running around 50 zones to level up with quests. Learning the dynamics of each zone, where you can run and where you can't run. Dying along the way. Find me a nice spot where I can sit and kill loads of creatures. But I can understand why some people would dislike that method of leveling. Games that appeal to both sides work best.

So I agree with tbone, Endgame is more important than leveling content.
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Posted: Jan 3rd 2009 5:00PM (Unverified) said

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"Last time I checked, that lack of endgame content doesn't seem to have hurt their numbers during those first nine months."

It would have if Blizzard hadn't added more endgame content. Molten Core was able to keep their attention for so long because it was still an enigma, and World of Warcraft didn't really have much competition at the time, just Everquest II and Lineage 2 really.
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Posted: Jan 5th 2009 1:14PM ttvp said

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/r Kilawhar

"The Molten Core was all Wow Had to offer until about nine months after the game came out."

I hate to disagree with you, because you make a lot of solid points, but Warcraft had a little more than Molten Core at launch as far as level cap content is concerned. There was also Scholomance, Stratholme (2 parts), Blackrock Depths (arguable). Lower Blackrock Spire, and Upper Blackrock Spire. All of which I believe were initially 10/15 man raids when they were conceived. Yes Molten Core was top-tier raiding, but the other raid dungeons were formidable back then. Just because they're castrated shells of their former selves nowadays that can easily be soloed or done with less than 5 people doesn't make their existence any less significant.

Sorry but I had to take issue with that one thing you said. Everything else is spot on.
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Posted: Jan 5th 2009 1:41PM ttvp said

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Oh yes, and can't forget Onyxia, the definitive raid encounter in the game. Azuregos, Lord Kazzak, and Dire Maul were also significant endgame additions, but that came about 5 months after launch.
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Posted: Jan 2nd 2009 2:24PM (Unverified) said

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Leveling content is more important than endgame content.

This im not totally sure about. Warhammer had a ton of good content for leveling (the only thing is they dont guide you to most of it, and some of the best parts are easy to miss) but a VERY large portion of players powerleveled right past it via scenarios. Then they had a game that hadnt been out all that long that had to survive exclusively on its endgame (which was initially unplayable for all intents and purposes but most of that is fixed now).

I stilll think the grind X many levels so you can play the "real game" is a bad formula. There should be endgame style content from early on. Obviously the complexity would grow as you level but a raid, bg or arena (or any other late game types) should be available to players as often as possible. I hope future games steal WAR's bolster and BG que anywhere system (May have been done before, I dunno). If nothing else it gives you a little bit more variety while questing (well until later tiers and its the same scenario but thats a different rant altogether) and can help get you past the rougher XP droughts when leveling PVE.

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Posted: Jan 2nd 2009 3:46PM (Unverified) said

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Leveling content has everything to do with it. Just take a look at EQ. The devs have done nothing but work on endgame almost exclusively and so you never see any new subscribers to the game because there is nothing for them. If you do decide to try Everquest the only options you have is to Lvl grind after the Tutorial. Most starting quests in EQ are so outdated that you can get better xp and gear just doing the extremely boring Lvl grinding. There is totally no emersion experience in everquest anymore. Sure you still need to create and update the endgame stuff but if you dont want the game to die off then you also need to develope content from lvl 1 to endgame. Everquest has probably 2 years tops left of life unless some major changes are made because they do nothing but work on endgame.
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Posted: Jan 2nd 2009 8:44PM Seraphina Brennan said

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The sad part is that people are powering past leveling content because we're not giving them enough incentive to stick with it.

Through games like World of Warcraft, we're teaching today's gamers an unconscious formula that they are carrying over to other games that may not apply the same formula. Things like Lord of the Rings Online, which scraps endgame in favor of telling an epic story through the levels. (Epic story = totally worth it.)

So, when all the people jumped from Warcraft to WAR (plus the marketing talking about the "awesome siege endgame didn't help) and found that they had missed most of the game... yeah... probably part of the reason... :(
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Posted: Jan 2nd 2009 11:01PM (Unverified) said

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I think were agreeing but I dont think I presented my point clearly earlier.

I just think endgame / leveling should be intertwined throughout. And I also think that this content should be much easier to revisit (delevel option that disables abilities higher than the intended content) so that helping a buddy level doesnt mean AOE instance grind/ powerlevel.

Also...

"Finish your damn game before you start charging people money for it."

^ Exactly ^

I would only add.

Reviewing MMO's using the same criteria as other games is rediculous and they should be immediately dismissed.
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Posted: Jan 3rd 2009 11:17AM ultimateq said

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"Just take a look at EQ. The devs have done nothing but work on endgame almost exclusively and so you never see any new subscribers to the game because there is nothing for them. "

That is actually wrong. I was a die hard EQ player and raided endgame on a daily basis. Every few expansions would come out with what I call a "milestone expansion", and would offer all sorts of zones and/or enhancements for leveling.

"The Serpent's Spine" is an expansion that comes to mind. I actually quit shortly after it came out. You could level 1-75 (75 was max level back then) entirely in that expansion. It added a new player race, and had loads of endgame content.
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Posted: Jan 2nd 2009 4:38PM Scopique said

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Leveling content IS more important then end-game content.

There are a handful of players who race to the end game of any MMO, and then complain about what they find there. This prompts a sh1tstorm of "teh endgame is broken!!1!" comments. Meanwhile, the bulk of players are still leveling 40% behind these morons, mired in the leveling aspect of the game.

When expansions come out, who get's content? End gamers. What do mid-level players get? Nothing but some bug fixes, maybe some artwork updates.

Really, you can't use WoW as an example in this case. It's been out so long now that yes, a good portion of the player base HAS reached the end content. However, in a lot of the younger games, people are still enjoying mid-level content, despite the fact that the "new MMO smell" has worn off, and the "good content" doesn't start for another 10-20 levels. The mid range DOES need work, almost across the board of MMOs.
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Posted: Jan 2nd 2009 4:34PM wjowski said

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I have to disagree with this list mostly because it's missing one of the biggest things MMOs should've learned...

Finish your damn game before you start charging people money for it.
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Posted: Jan 2nd 2009 8:45PM Seraphina Brennan said

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Hahahaha. Oh god, so true, so true. :D
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Posted: Jan 2nd 2009 4:43PM TheJackman said

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The true is that that the games your make can not make every one happy.

Some players like to enjoy they way up to the big level others the so called hardcore race true it like there was a hot naked girl at the end of it and will not even bother reading quests and so on and later they go to blog sites like this and say something like "your game here" does not have any content or there is no end game in this...

So at the end its just all about who you want to target and where you want put your time in.

BTW if you do make a end game with naked girls in it I am all up for it :P
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