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Reader Comments (11)

Posted: Dec 28th 2008 12:51PM elocke said

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Honestly, they both are great at what they do, I think WoW is the best at PVE and WAR at PVP. I play more WoW as I tend to be more PVE savvy but the few times this last week I found myself in a pvp match I kept cursing WoW and felt like throwing up WAR for a true pvp battle.

Why is it so hard for an MMORPG to hit all aspects of the genre? From sandbox to PVE to PVP to story, etc. Now that's a good article topic for someone to focus on. With all the money these companies throw into making the games, is it that hard to have equal pvp/pvp/story teams developing for a game instead of one being greater than the other?

Food for thought.

Posted: Dec 28th 2008 2:57PM Nadril said

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The balancing act between PvE and PvP is hard. For one, you have PvE players who don't want to PvP at all. They hate it. They hate getting ganked, the hate the epeen flexing of it all, and they just dislike it.

You have PvPers who want full loot, or want an open world to kill in -- which already clashes with the PvE crowd. Even then it is difficult to balance the rewards you get from PvE and PvP to ensure that they don't force one to do one or the other...

Make no doubt that it is totally possible but it's difficult, and it wouldn't be a game for everyone.



As far as WoW vs WAR, I'd rather judge this in another 6 months or so for WAR. Warhammer Online is off to a good start, but they need a lot of work (lag in sieges, especially fortress sieges, is horrid) and are going to need to work on more than short term bonuses (RvR influence) to get people out there to RvR. The game is there, but it's difficult to find a fun match in WAR because once so many people come around it just lags to hell (which is why I left).


WoW has a good number of years up on WAR. Even as a PvP player right now I find myself drawn to WoW more so than WAR, purely because it felt like there was no skill involved in WAR's zerg fest PvP. There was those times when I got an even fight (did 6v6's PvP a bit against other destro teams) but most of the time it was just imbalanced. The most fun I had in that game, I think, was the warband vs warband PvP I did with my guild. We had an entire warband and fought off what was at least a warband and another half of a warband.

Of course after we killed them twice they just walked off, which is a big problem. There is no point in trying to fight a losing battle in warhammer, you can just wait until later in the day and take it (the keep) without any fight.

Posted: Dec 28th 2008 5:13PM Abriael said

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The biggest problem of balancing PvP with PvE is introducing the idea that defeat isn't the end of the world to PvErs, expecially in games like warhammer where the death penalty isn't harsh at all.

As an hybrid kind of player that likes both to PvE and to PvP (not free for all though, but in controlled RvR-like environments), I understood that, and that allows me to enjoy both.

Most PvE players i know and I've played it are incredibly turned off by the sole idea of the possibility of being defeated, and that's why they spend their whole time being spanked by mobs. No matter how complex, a PvE encounter will always be beaten in the end, and from there on it's just a matter of memorizing what you're supposed to do and it's cake. In PvE you're the hero that always wins, in PvP you're just one party, and you can win as well as loose. pure PvErs are frightened by the idea of not being the "invincible hero" and this turns them off PvP.

In warhammer it's pretty easy to indentify a WoW pure PvEr in PvP. if he gathered some guts to join a scenario, he will IMMEDIATELY start to backpedal (even if he's a tank) as soon as the enemy is spotted. If he's charged by even a couple of enemies he'll immediately turn his back and flee or try to break line of sight (normally putyting himself in a disadvantageous position by loosing higher ground and leaving his companions to be mowed down, just to be mowed down himself a few second later). As soon as his faction is starting to loose he'll immediately leave and go Back to PvE. In open RvR he will stubbornly refuse to siege an even slightly defended keep and, if he's forced to take part in it, he will plant his feet firmly on the ramp, not moving a single step forward and blocking everyone else that's trying to charge up.

I've seen entire lines of tanks collapsing like paper just because the enemy looked threatening.

Given that retreat is sometimes a sound tactical option, they will ALWAYS do it. "Charge" or "push" for them are words without a meaning, and the "S" key on their keyboard has been replaced several times due to consumption.
Seriously, I could understand that in games like EVE, where the death penalty is quite harsh, but in Warhammer it's downright laughable.

Some, luckily, learn with time and start to enjoy the challenge. Some remain clueless for their whole career until they go back to wow, that safe environment where the most skilled enemy is an unchallenging mob that is programmed to go down when faced by the "heroes".

Posted: Dec 28th 2008 5:50PM (Unverified) said

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Honestly, they both suck.

Repetitive, poor of content, too casual-play oriented, completely incoherent with both the licences they have behind.
They are played cause there's nothing better, except the space ship game, but ppl need to move their little men around, not their fricking ships.

Add a solid ambulation system to EVE and give something to do with it, and I'll be there forever, screw both WoW and War.

Posted: Dec 28th 2008 6:36PM Abriael said

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lol since when wow is based on a license?

You simply don't know what you're talking about. Warhammer is very coherent with the IP it's based in. besides a few completely warranted elements conceded to gameplay.
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Posted: Dec 28th 2008 9:32PM Nadril said

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You know, I would play EVE if it wasn't such a damned boring game. I'd love to have a more complex game, open loot rules, the likes. But EVE puts me to fucking sleep.

So, really, sorry for wanting some entertainment in my MMORPG's.


As far as lore goes, two things:

1) Blizzard OWNS the WoW IP, so they can't really fuck up it's lore. They own it's lore.

2) Mythic has done well so far in handling the WAR IP.
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Posted: Dec 28th 2008 10:42PM (Unverified) said

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I repeat, they both suck hard and true, because of their being games for teens and casual tired office workers (god bless 'em they need their anti-stress).

I don't currently play EVE, but it's the only MMO that's about handling a coherent society and it's pushing on the concept of a REAL virtual world with conflicts, economy and depth.

We need deep games that dare to push forward the meaning of mmo'ing creating believable complex new worlds with their problems, and those that do this are to be praised. Those that declare in first place their intention to gather the most subscribers, and that is naturally done offering the mildest type of brain-free entertainment for the average casual kids and office guys, and these companies have success because they made a game that the most flat-headed non-gamer dummy can enjoy, they don't deserve any praise just as doesn't a company who has success because it came up with a new talc-powered toilet paper predicting a year full of victims of hemorroids.
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Posted: Dec 28th 2008 10:52PM Nadril said

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I get it, you're into another kind of MMO. As I said before, I'm down for a vast, expanding world. However first and foremost I want the game to be FUN. It should be an enjoyable experience, and that in it's self is an art form of its own.

You may disagree, and I know nothing anyone says would get you to believe otherwise. Just like the other jaded MMORPG "gamers" you are looking for the holy grail of MMOs, which is an impossible task at times. Darkfall looks great, but chances are it will not bring forth everything it promised.


I understand that WoW and WAR may not be the complete "living world" you want. Somewhere games need to make sacrafices in order to be more playable, more fun. I don't really care about being in an open living world (don't get me wrong, it would be wonderful for an MMO to deliver that promise) but as a competitive player I play MMORPG's for the PvP. I play it for the competition.

MMORPG's as a great art form are a while off. World of Warcraft (and Warhammer Online) both got things right, they also both got things wrong. I just fear that those companies looking to make a completely enthralling experience will be forced to use aging game mechanics dated back to Ultima Online, other than moving the genre forward.


Just try and realize you are not the only kind of gamer out there, nor the only kind of MMORPG player out there. World of Warcraft is an incredibly polished game, and it has thought out encounters (you can argue how easy or difficult or stupid it is, they are still very well done) and I'll be damned to say that I enjoy the small scale PvP it offers. It may just be my kind of style, my kind of gameplay I enjoy, but I enjoy the small scale (2v2, 3v3, 5v5) challenge of overcoming your opponent. And, likewise, Warhammer Online is up and coming very strong and promises to be a great game.
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Posted: Dec 28th 2008 6:02PM (Unverified) said

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Btw, what the fuck is the "impending death of pc gaming"?

Now that indipendent gaming is so strong and vital?
Maybe they mean the end of console shit porting? god willing they leave us alone with our strategy/rpg/adventure games, farewell to action crap, and welcome back, dear flight simulators.

Posted: Dec 28th 2008 10:54PM Nadril said

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The "death of PC gaming" is just some thing journalists love to spout out every so often in order to feel important. Hardware is at a point in this day and age that almost anyone can buy a cheap PC and be ready to play most games at a decent setting, given they do some research first.
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Posted: Jan 3rd 2009 8:51AM (Unverified) said

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WoW is the better game at the moment, but Warhammer is pretty quickly fixing it's problems.

Personally, I like the idea of Warhammer much more, and have been getting tired of Blizzard so drasticly mixing the game up every expansion. Though I'm sure im in the minority there, and that's fine.

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