The Daily Grind: Should leveling be removed?

My vote is Ditch the levels and go skill base like eve or something similar!

well in eve there are levels of skill, still leveling. There i snot a mmmo ,not that i know of, which has removed the level up and skill up system completly. It can be done, but would not be interesting and not competitive. Boring. Lrvrling system should be kept, even we some times hate it so much, i know i have hated it...

Darkfall will be the answer to that somewhat when it releases.

I can see the lure though. I like jumping over to the Creep side of stuff in Lotro just because I don't have to grind out levels...just do some quests...kill some Freeps and viola! go spend those points to be a little better for next time.

There is a big problem with EvE's skill based mechanics though. Its impossible to catch up.

I would like to see some sort of level grind alongside an EvE like skillsystem that doesn't take forever. Cut the duration by 60 or even 70%.

The levelgrind is a great introduction to an MMO. It helps ease up the learning curve by holding you back, at the same time you get the achievement feel all along.

Warhammers renown level, or read: some paralell level system is also good.

Just don't forget the RPG side of the MMORPG phrase here :)

One of the basic functions in a RPG is to evolve your character. And so, you want toevolve him in as many ways as possible.

levels (grind, but also a way of easing the learning curve)
skills (specialisation)
pvp ranks/renown (the ladder system)
achievements (acomplishments)
rankings (top scores etc, all sorts of charts)

Levels must go. It's rather ironic that one of the first modern MMOs, Ultima Online, didn't use levels. The genre kind of slid back into the DnD tropes that plague the games that we have today.

The only issue, then, is that leveling gives a lot of people a reason to play: advancement. If you were to remove levels from WoW, WAR or EQ2, what would be left that would REALLY keep people playing? Titles which eschew the level-based progression would REALLY need to step up and move away from "all combat, all the time" content and offer alternative game play styles to fill the void.

I like the Asheron's Call method.

At character creation there are 100 or so skills with various costs between 4 and 14 skill points. You have 50 or so points to start. To increase your skills you use them, or increase them with raw XP that you earn from killing stuff. At certain levels you gain more skill points so you can buy more skills from that same list.

All a level is in this game is a representation of how much XP you have and how many skills you could possibly have.

A level 200 character and a level 20 character could be specialized in the same skills, it's just the level 200 character would have a much much higher rating in those skills.

The question is why MMOs are supposed to be 'endless'. Why not make an MMO with the scope of a normal 1 player game. You play it and you are done. There will be other people playing alongside and with you, each at their own level, just as in any other MMO, but there is no endgame. You kill the big boss and you're done.
Just like the Kingdom of Loathing, now I think about it.

Levels are a way of keeping players from not experiencing the full game when they want to. They put you on a railroad track for content. By giving you that 'carrot' mmo developers are ensuring that if you want to see it, you're going to have to invest lots of time. Lots of time = more $ for the developer, and by putting in railroad tracks and slow leveling (either via curve or length), it also means they have to put in less content to keep you playing, and with the 'online' format it allows them to add end-game content post-release in order to keep the high leveled players content (as well as provide more carrots for the lowbies). We won't really even mention the lack of realism in a leveling system.

Skill-based MMOGs will require FAR more content and variety from the developer in order to insure that their players don't get bored.

Personally, I want to step off the railroad track and be able to PLAY my game when I get it; not just have a carrot dangled in front of me that I have to work REALLY HARD FOR. I want more diverse content, and I want to be able to reach it at launch.

I'm hoping for Darkfall Online. Even if I end up hating it, I hope that what they do with MMOs sticks.

@scopique - Ideally, people would play a game because they like the game environment, the community, and the different challenges the game presents to them. The leveling thing, IMHO, is yet another design easy button. Look at a game like WoW for example--players no longer care HOW they level, as long as that xp bar keeps moving up. Read the quests? Hell no? Enjoy the neon Disney wonderland Blizz has bestowed on them? Hell no! I gotta kill 20 boars that mysteriously look like the same reskinned boars I was killing in Elwynn Forest in 2004!

I like to see another system like the old SWG had.

Ditch the level model. It's frustrating, linear and deserves to go back to the board games and card games it came from.

I love the skills system in EVE, it's infinitely flexible and infinitely less frustrating. I don't care if it takes time to gain skills, I have a full time job I can do while it's doing that in the background.

As for not being able to 'catch up' that's typical of the 1-dimensional level-based frame of mind. Instead of catching up you find a better or more appealing way 'up' or entertain yourself doing something else.

Games where I'm required to level up have ultimately driven me insane with boredom. The only way leveling up will survive is if there's a diverse number of ways to level, otherwise the same old same old same old gets old and I walk away, along with a lot of other people who have 'other lives' they'd rather be living instead of wasting hours stabbing things or shooting things in a field somewhere. I learned that lesson pretty quick from Tabula Rasa.

Levels are bad for MMOs. I have been posting huge threads about reasons why for years. At least these days more people agree - just a couple years ago everyone was so blinded by the greatness of WoW that they argued how great leveling was.

Advancement - There are plenty of other systems that offer advancement in an MMO. In fact, every MMO designer has to worry about "end game" and how they can offer advancement to their players without adding never-ending levels. Hark! A game designed that starts at end-game with tons of interesting ways to advance in "micro" ways (reputation, influence, gear, etc...)

Restricting Content - Again, modern MMOs already prove that you can restrict content through quest lines and player trials that are much more interesting and dynamic that a level.

Expand the World - A huge downside of levels is that it blocks areas of the world to low level players, BUT it also makes low level areas pointless to revisit. Imagine an MMO where every dungeon is available, every land area is filled with danger and quests - all accessible and fun your entire character's life. WoW is starting to get it by offering Elite versions of their dungeons.

Remove limits to Friends - Removing levels also removes the artificial limitation placed that hinders friends from playing with one another. Games like City of Heroes now bind friend's levels to one another, so as one advances so does the other. But really, we just need to loose the levels.


I could go on and on. Really, once you remove the big level, you quickly find that there are lots of "micro-levels" you can create to offer player advancement. You can even make zones more difficult at first and as the player quests their that zone gets easier - mimicing the player gaining knowledge and proficiency of the land. Yet a player in a lush forest who travels to an icy tundra will find their skills are ill equipped for the new land and will have to micro-level up here now.

And there are a more and highly clever reward systems that can be added for player retention. Just comb end-game content and you will find lots already there to expand upon.

Skills are just levels with a different coat of paint.

You remove levels and replace them with skills and you'll have the same complaints: It's too {easy|hard} to get my skill high enough to do end game content.

I say keep the levels. Or replace them with skills, it doesn't matter much to me. But what I like about RPGs is the sense of progression.

You could take out skills and levels and replace it with gear. Then the complaint would be "It's too {easy|hard} to get end game gear."

People will gripe, no matter what you do.

I say go back to when Star Wars Galaxies was in its prime. (pre-cu) there were no levels, you just leveled the profession YOU wanted. just make sure there was a lot of professions to choose from.