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Reader Comments (14)

Posted: Dec 7th 2008 5:21PM Interitus said

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I find it is at certain times. My biggest problem is when you are transitioning between newbieness to low level actual player. You have the basics down and you are starting to go around. At this point you are usually still doing missions but they often send you through 0.4 or lower space.

At this point you don't have the money to replace a ship but you can't sit around in safe areas either because there is no longer the income you need.

This is the weakest time because there are plenty of people out there camping, waiting for the next low level pilot to come through.

Posted: Dec 7th 2008 7:35PM Brendan Drain said

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It's definitely true that it's the players with a little isk and experience that have it worst. They tend to be able to afford at most one replacement ship as the average new player trains for bigger ships much quicker than he can make the isk for them. I do think players are given a false impression of lowsec though. Missions in lowsec only pay marginally more and mining there isn't much better than highsec.

I think players are much better off sticking to highsec and joining a corp that will help them out and back them up. Not only can other members of a corp probably help you make isk a lot faster to replace any losses, the older players have a wealth of knowledge you can use to help avoid dying in the first place.
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Posted: Dec 7th 2008 11:13PM (Unverified) said

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I think players feel the loss of a ship in EVE as a bad thing because you spend so long sitting in a station staring at it.

Posted: Dec 8th 2008 3:12AM halfcaptain said

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Emotional investment in a ship has little to do with the harshness of death, for me at least. Granted, everyone gets attached to their ships in some way or another, but my favorite ship at a given time is usually one of my least expensive.

Getting blown up in Eve, golden rules or no golden rules, is compounded by a few things - pride, the nature of Eve's economy, implants, and the staggering number of ships and fittings. That said, it's definitely a must to always have an updated clone, and 9 times out of 10 necessary to have your ship insured. Never flying a boat 'you can't afford to lose' is wise adage, but problematic. As you amass skills, you buy increasingly expensive ships and modules to capitalize on those skills. Even assuming your income increases, it rarely increases proportionately to your best available ship. Take a battleship for instance. A fitted battleship can cost upwards of 500 million ISK, and no matter how rarely you fly it, it's almost impossible to account for the amount and type of bullshit you'll encounter (depending on where you fly it). My point is, at some juncture or another, it's near inevitable that you'll lose a ship that won't at least hurt financially. Add to that how much of a massive chore it is to re-assemble your ship (flying from system to system snagging modules and rigs at their lowest prices) and how much prices fluctuate in the economy, and losing a ship that is anything more advanced than a cruiser sucks pretty large.

Death, as in being podded, is the next level of shitiness. Not only do you have to pay for expensive-ass implants all over again, but until buy them and plug them in again, dropping dozens of millions of ISK in the process, your skill training is losing days (possibly even weeks) of precious time.

Sometimes, just the being podded in and of itself is an act so offensive and personal that it makes your death that much more of a monitor-chucker. I've had otherwise decent nights ruined by some dick in lowsec podding me out of nowhere in my totally harmless, totally unarmed, totally empty, totally pointless-to-destroy hauling boat. As an added mood-harsher, sometimes you even get the pleasure of receiving an unsolicited, obnoxious, and gloating evemail from the dick-in-a-box that blew you up for no reason. Retribution is sometimes frustratingly difficult to arrange, or just flat-out impossible. Don't get me wrong, I love low and null sec, and I understand that while PvP is an integral part of the game, honor isn't. But that doesn't mean that if some dink that's been playing since 2003 takes a dump on your cruiser in his Tech 2 battleship just because he can it doesn't sting.

As for walking in stations, I'm excited and curious, but I'll opine at length in the early morning when I can actually try it out. Plus, pretending I don't have to work tomorrow morning and leaving a comment this long (that 3, maybe 4 people will skim) is really dumb.

Posted: Dec 8th 2008 7:54AM (Unverified) said

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I agree with many of the above comments and i just wanted to add my 2 cents.

We are all proud of our ships in Eve because it represents the skill training investment, isk investment, research/fitting time, and learning how to successfully fly a particular ship.

When we lose a ship, the only thing we really lose is the isk investment. The other investments basically stay intact. ISK investment = time spent playing the game to earn more isk (missioning, ratting, mining, manufacturing, etc).

Now lets compare Eve to another popular MMO.. World of Warcraft. And yes, I know they are two totally different games. But i would to demonstrate the end reaction of a WOW player if WOW had Eve death consequences.

Lets say that the armor a player has is equivalent to a players ship in Eve. His time spent leveling to 80 and running the dungeons required to earn that gear is equivelent to the skill training in Eve. The gold he spent crafting an item in WOW, putting enchantments on each item is equivalent to the isk invested in a ship in Eve. The time he spent researching the best gear for his primary endgame function is equivalent to an eve pilots research time on how to fit/pilot a ship. And lastly, the actual playtime invested with the armor is similar to an eve pilot learning how to best fly his ship.

Now imagine that everytime the WOW player dies in the game, he would lose one/some of the above investments. The only thing that he would really lose is the gold invested in the crafted items and enchantments put on the armor. That means that all items would have to be reenchanted and recrafted on every death. That could easily cost a WOW player 1000's of gold on every death depending on quality of enchants and crafted gear. This loss would be similar to an eve player losing millions to billions of isk depending on the ship loss.

I guarantee that the average WOW player would be crying loudly about death penalties. And the only emotional factor involved would be the time reinvestment required to reach the level/gear he had prior to the death. Just as an Eve player realizes that he has to run missions for another week just to replace the rig fitted Megathron he lost in PvP.

You could tell the WOW player to only wear the armor that he can afford to lose. But i am positive that the WOW player would not accept that paradigm like the average eve player has to.

Posted: Dec 8th 2008 11:23AM (Unverified) said

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Death penalties are good space sim games like this, but I think it should be easy to work around this problem in a better way than they are doing in EvE.

However, insurances kind of lifts the purpose of it. The way I see it, the people that gets hit hard from loosing a ship. The newbies don't have insurances. While the people that can afford it easily, have insurances.

Thus just ruling out the whole point in death penalty althogether, adding a hidden (insurance) tax on the public.

What if they had removed death penalty on certain zones? I personally believe that this idea would have been alot better.

Posted: Dec 8th 2008 11:53AM Brendan Drain said

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The problem with this is that EVE's death penalties aren't just tacked on as an afterthought, they're real consequences. How would you even go about removing the death penalties in certain areas? Free replacement ships? Free 100% insurance? What about modules lost and clone costs if you're podded? What about the opportunity cost of the time spent collecting and fitting a replacement ship?

Removing the natural death penalties in EVE would almost certainly ruin the quality of the PvP for most people. It's that cold, harsh mentality that keeps a lot of us interested and playing.

Also, remember that insurance does not remove death penalty. It was introduced as a cushion to reduce the cost of death by 70% of the ship's rough value and thus promote PvP. Platinum level insurance works by charging you 30% of the ship's rough value to cover the loss for 3 months, that's all.

You have to manually purchase that so it's not a hidden tax and if you take ships into PvP reguarly chances are you'll lose it within 3 months. Also, not only are tech 2 ships unable to be insured for their full market value but modules are also not recovered by insurance.
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Posted: Dec 8th 2008 7:14PM halfcaptain said

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Insurance, like Mr. Drain said, is just to cushion a pilot from the monetary shittiness of losing a ship. Most players look at insurance as part of the ship cost, considering it's usually a fraction of the price, and chances are you'll lose that ship at some point. If you're clever about picking insurance packages, it's not that expensive, and it's a really good idea - especially for new players. Having said that, getting blown up is still a bummer, with or without insurance.

As for removing the death penalty in particular areas of space, I'm going to have to disagree. It'd be a little like having certain rooms in every counterstrike map that make bullets do zero damage to human players. That would radically change the dynamics of the game, if not making the match itself totally pointless and unchallenging. High security space does offer some relative safety though. There is a pretty deadly response team of a police ships called Concord to discourage unprovoked PvP hostility in most players. Of course, the police don't usually show up quickly in bad neighborhoods in real life, and that's pretty true in eve. Also a deterrent are the security penalties you acquire when you attack someone in high sec space, which pretty mark you as either dangerous or an asshole for a pretty long time. And that reputation is pretty hard to shake.
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Posted: Dec 8th 2008 11:58AM Letrange said

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If I may point out a major difference between the above stated comparison death penalty and the way thing really work. It is relatively easier to make isk in EvE than it is to make gold in Warcraft. Most MMOs seem to have an inflationary trend going. The economic data shows that EvE suffers more from a deflationary trend. So for any newbies joining things have never been so easy. Everything is cheaper now than it was in the past. Besides there is the fact that unlike warcraft - everything is available on the market. Nothing is bound to you except your skills. If you loose a ship you don't have to go on raid x to get it again, you just buy it off the market.

Posted: Dec 8th 2008 8:28PM halfcaptain said

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Letrange, you're way off.

1) "It is relatively easier to make isk in EvE than it is to make gold in Warcraft...The economic data shows that EvE suffers more from a deflationary trend... Everything is cheaper now than it was in the past."

What economic data? Show me a link! Eve's economy is, like many, a volatile one. Fluctuations in the market prices are wild and very hard to predict, but even my modest experience tells me that Eve's economy has many items that mark an inflationary trend. I've talked to a handful of players that started in 2003 or 2004 and have recently returned about their surprise at the increase in Eve prices. One guy in particular was astounded at the current price of the 'Harvester Mining Drone.' As he remembers, they were expensive, but relatively reasonable for their quality and use. A miner by trade, they were cheap enough for him to keep roughly a couple dozen in stock, and they were left in a station hangar where he found them when he returned. Now, mining drones average out at roughly 60 million ISK apiece. Owning 30 of these is unheard of, even ridiculous for a character of his stature. As for it being relatively easier to make money in WoW, that's arguable, but I am of the opinion that you have to work a little harder, or at least be a more shrewd businessman in the Eve economy. It's hard to keep track of Eve's overall market trends, but it's been put forth that Eve, like our real economy, has a gold standard of it's own. It's not minerals, oddly enough, but Tech II Blueprint originals. Check out this forum post if you need to get your math on.

2) "For any newbies joining things have never been so easy."

For a player starting today versus a player starting 4 years ago, yes, it is easier to install Eve. Yes, there are more tutorials, yes, there are 3rd party tools, and yeah, there is no doubt more reading material and forum-posted insight than there was back then. But this is the same for almost every other MMO that has lasted even half as long, and that includes WoW. I would argue that starting now, while better facilitated by the developers, is as or more bewildering than it was in 2004. Add to that the increasing number of Veteran players and the huge gap in skillpoints between them and the rookie pilots (impossible to surmount because of the nature of Eve's real time skill training) and you have a perceptibly more difficult environment for a brand new player.

3) "Besides there is the fact that unlike warcraft - everything is available on the market."

Also untrue. If I want a type of dinner table that is only available in China, and nobody imports it to North America, I basically have to go to China in the massive airplane I own (of course) and get the thing myself. That, or I send for it, wait a few months, and pay an exorbitant price that will take much longer and cost much more than me personally retrieving that item. Either way, I'm not going to fly to China for a table, and I'm not going to pay a hundred times more for something a guest will probably carve initials into with a fork next month. So that item is for all intents and purposes, unavailable to me, or at least not a viable option. The same goes for Eve. I'm not going to spend 4 hours traversing the massive universe to pick up some crazy-exotic ammunition that isn't kicking around the regions I usually hang out in. Yes, the ammo is available on the world market, but no, the item is not available in the market that counts, my regional market, and the markets that are reasonably close to that region.

More important for me to point out, some things just aren't available on the open market. There are specialized or rare ships, rigs, blueprints and modules that are so expensive or sought after (most of the time both) that you just can't buy them without finding a specialized dealer via contract (dudes usually located in dangerous space, or charging absurd sums of money), making it yourself, or hoping someone you kill leaves it behind in their wreckage. Each one of these routes is either extremely expensive, hard to find, painfully time consuming, risky, or an all of the above combination. So, clearly, the open market isn't a cure-all, find-what-you-want type of thing. And frankly, finding and buying high-quality things in the Eve economy sounds harder and more compelling than going "on raid x to get it again."

Hopefully I've illuminated some shit for you.
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Posted: Dec 8th 2008 8:30PM halfcaptain said

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Damn, no html. This is the forum post I tried to link to concerning the 'gold standard' of Eve.

http://eve-search.com/thread/763058/author/Shakuul
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Posted: Dec 8th 2008 12:56PM (Unverified) said

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I play both WoW in what would be called a "Harcore raiding guild" and EVE, I am new to eve, I do enjoy it. The learning curve of EVE versus WOW is extremely different. I think the comparison between the 2 games is apples to oranges. You die a lot more in WOW than you do in EVE. Granted that for the most part I mine in 0.6 space (not cause its any better ore than 1.0-0.8) because 1.0-0.8 is sooooo boring. I could go mine in lower sec space but the ore isnt that much better. I can make roughly the same amount of money while im waiting for my skills to get up to a point where i can pilot a decent ship with the right fitting (roughly 50 days away from a drake with proper fittings like I said im new)

I think you should add another golden rule in there though #4 Do not pilot a ship that you do not have the skills to properly fly.

takes you 4 days to fly a BS, who cares... someone in a frig could kill you

Posted: Dec 8th 2008 6:57PM halfcaptain said

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That's another golden rule I not only agree with, but manage to adhere to. I remember back when I had only been playing for 4 or 5 months, and a dude in my new corp chided me about sticking to destroyers - "I can't believe you're not in a battleship by now," he said. That being my first character, it's true I was taking my time moving through ship classes while I got better acquainted with the game and it's cruel learning curve; even so, I followed this golden rule for two reasons. 1) Training properly for a ship gets you more bang for your buck, so to speak. There's no point in dropping ten times as much cash for a ship that can do the same job for a fraction of the cost - with some careful skill training and good fitting. A well-fitted frigate can consistently run level 2 combat missions, and while it's a bit of a dumb idea, a destroyer can manage level 3 missions if you're careful and stupid enough to try.

2) Better understanding the capacity of a ship, in combat or otherwise, tempers you for PvP, and helps you understand what you can expect from other players or from NPCs to some extent. Why pilot a boat you just can't use properly? You're setting yourself up for some massive PvP embarrassment, wasting money, and frustrating yourself because you're just too damn impatient.

Typically, I'll fly an entry level ship of a class with a mixture of mostly T1/T2 modules and T1 weaponry while I understand where I want to head with that class. For example, I flew a Celestis cruiser to take advantage of my character's missile and hybrid turret skills while I trained up for better drones and T2 gunnery. Then I worked my way into a Thorax while honing my armor tanking. Now I'm satisfied I'm using cruisers pretty well, and I have a pretty good idea of how to improve on what I've got.
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Posted: Dec 11th 2008 9:05AM (Unverified) said

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If you have not figured out in 1st few weeks how to scam and make unlimited isk it might matter, but its so easy to just contract up a Billion isk or two in a weekend in jita after that u dont really care what you loose cuz ships r so super cheap

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