| Mail |
You might also like: WoW Insider, Joystiq, and more

Reader Comments (33)

Posted: Dec 2nd 2008 3:55PM TwistedBishop said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
This is another misrepresentation on your part. I'm responding in this thread to point out your, and some others, intentional attempts to deceive. Making an argument to play AoC never entered into it. People can make up their mind from coverage here and elsewhere, only now without your particular grudge masquerading as truth.

What substance is left in your argument? Your "facts" are either documented lies or deliberate spin, most of which I've already pointed out. You're down to using features pushed back from launch as something different in the MMO genre here. If you're going to bash AoC, at least make sense within context.


Reply

Posted: Dec 2nd 2008 4:21PM Mr Angry said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
Without some sort of counter-argument I can't take your opinion very seriously I'm afraid. I've asked you to correct me and to outline positive areas of the game and you've failed to present that, just to deconstruct each one of my posts. Right now you appear to be more of a Mr Angry fan than a AoC fan and that's not helping anyone.

I'm all about discussion, I appreciate you like the game, I'm not here to argue semantics with folks, sorry, I like to talk MMO. Just because I can get my point across, doesn't mean I deceive, it means you have a very different point of view.

There are rarely universal truths when discussing a subjective personal medium such as your experience playing an online computer game so I often expect people to have different opinions.

If you can't give a good enough reason to play the game then that goes in line with what I've been saying. My thoughts are carefully outlined now, if I'm wrong, fine, if I'm right that's good too. If you want to keep chatting, then bring something new to the table and we can talk otherwise it's just an argument rather than a discussion, I prefer to indulge the latter.

Thanks again
Reply

Posted: Dec 2nd 2008 4:30PM TwistedBishop said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
@Nadril: "That's why I had to grind my way 55-80 with enough quests in between all that to MAYBE grant 4 or 5 levels worth of experience."

Really, where do you guys get this stuff? Just Eiglophian Mountains took people to 59. Thunder River was easily to 65.


Reply

Posted: Dec 2nd 2008 4:40PM TwistedBishop said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
@Mr. Angry: "Without some sort of counter-argument I can't take your opinion very seriously I'm afraid."

See, here's your problem. You came into the thread shouting how, say, carrots are really poison. I replied, "Now, don't be silly, of course they're not poison." And your reply is, "Then tell me how good they taste."

Nope, sorry. Doesn't work that way. You're still the crazy guy ranting about poisoned carrots.
Reply

Posted: Dec 2nd 2008 4:17PM (Unverified) said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
Simple fact, they still havent addressed issues that were promised on the RETAIL BOX. Where is the directX 10 version promised right up until a week or 2 before retail? Where are the free drinks my Collectors Edition promised? Where is the bar-room brawling so lauded leading up to launch? Where is the NPC seiging of player made cities to 'practice for the real thing'? Where is the mercenary system in place for smaller guilds to successfully attack or defend a battlekeep without having to add players to the guild solely for keep seiges? The laundry list of 'promised and not delivered' talking points goes ON and ON!

I hyped this game up for my large guild and I have been eating crow every since because this game simply failed to deliver on what was promised and now it is simply trying to play catch up and will NEVER be the game it could have been, had they actually launched with quality controls in place. Contrary to fan opinion, the game is stable because the population is small and so the servers have no load NOT because any significant changes have been made to teh source code.

This game has a year at most. Anyone want to buy a slightly used collectors edition?

Posted: Dec 2nd 2008 4:39PM TwistedBishop said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
@Mr. Angry: "Without some sort of counter-argument I can't take your opinion very seriously I'm afraid."

See, here's your problem. You came into the thread shouting how, say, carrots are really poison. I replied, "Now, don't be silly, of course they're not poison." And your reply is, "Then tell me how good they taste."

Nope, sorry. Doesn't work that way. You're still the crazy guy ranting about poisoned carrots.

Posted: Dec 2nd 2008 4:54PM Mr Angry said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
You only want an argument, so I'll drop this, I can see that from fervent double posting, you've got a bit of a 'hard on' for this subject....

As for your analogy, interesting..... I've outlined what I thought, and you've just deconstructed my thoughts. As for saying 'don't be silly' you actually said 'you are lying' and 'that is slander' which is a pretty major oversimplification of your position. If you want to be accurate, let me correct you also.

Like I said, I stand by my opinions and I'm not alone, AoC is trash. I've little else to say, except I believe you are misleading people if you maintain that AoC isn't a tremendous waste of time and isn't on the way out.

Let's not drag this out this out longer than needs be. Feel free to PM me if you have real problems, I'm all ears.

P.S. Enjoy the carrots.
P.P.S ......told you so :)
Reply

Posted: Dec 2nd 2008 5:13PM TwistedBishop said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
"I've outlined what I thought, and you've just deconstructed my thoughts."

You've presented claims and I've refuted them. Which is natural in any disagreement. The problem comes when your statements can't stand scrutiny and you switch the topic. That's called a strawman argument.
Reply

Posted: Dec 2nd 2008 5:43PM Mr Angry said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
OK then, let's continue, staying on target.

Quest content. After level 45 it was a totally different game, as it was after level 20. Fact : Players ran out of quests and the content on the way to 80 from mid level was scare in the extreme. You've not even got me started on endgame yet. You've no leg to stand on here.

Layoff, proven to be true and significant. It's been reported at massively.com just recently. They mention new hires, but not news on volume. Guaranteed it's a net loss.

Poor track record, the game bombed hard after release. If you have figures to refute that, present them, if not, then pick your arguments carefully.

Server merges - because of instanced zones, the effect of this is marginal to players compared to other titles. This same instancing that was hidden from players until they actually bought the game. They cap the zones low. Having more people does not make for a more populous environment, it makes for more parallel instances.

I missed anything, please post here I want to make sure that I can support my posting here and that I can follow an argument through until you understand what I've said, I'm willing to work with you to achieve that.

Like I said, you want to talk all day about this, PM, otherwise I'm sure you have work to be getting on with at FunCom now the other half of the team has been sacked.

We can skip the debate 101 here, over to you.
Reply

Posted: Dec 3rd 2008 2:39AM TwistedBishop said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
To your points:

This notion that pre-45 the quests were plentiful then suddenly dried up is ludicrous. It's been addressed, and yet you keep bringing it up. Did people have to grind to hit a new hub sometimes? Yes. It's been said already. What's not true is that there was either 1) "absolutely no content other than very few missions" (your own claim that you quickly backpedaled on), or 2) that it was a significant drop in content. It was not "scarce in the extreme". If in certain spots you quest XP for 4-5 levels and end up having to grind to finish off a level to hit the next hub, that's just not scarce. Sorry. There's no debate here.

Layoffs, which you again you keep clinging to as some proof of the game's imminent demise. Let's be specific here: Funcom's US-based customer service and QA departments may (and may is the word, since this percentage is still a rumor) have seen a 70% staffing cut. Funcom released a press statement confirming an unspecified number of cuts and also an unspecified number new hires. So less dramatic than "mass layoffs at Funcom!" Have the developers and content creation side been impacted at all? No. Is it possible that their QA/CS departments were overstaffed due to handling the launch? Almost certainly. Companies reduce staff all the time, most especially after a large product releases. Another non-issue.

"The game bombed hard after release." Let's give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're talking about retention numbers. Do you realize how inane it is to claim with no context to place it in? No, you probably assume that LotRO has only sold 300k copies wordwide in its lifetime, that City of Heroes never sold more than 100k, that games which did truly bomb, such as Vanguard or DDO never sold more than 40k. (Despite knowing that Vanguard sold 250k at launch.) But this is indicative of your, and others, bad argument: present no facts, but proclaim it has to be worse than everything else. Why? Well, because you didn't like the game, so it must be.

Server merges. Another topic you flipflop on. First, let's get your claim of "hiding instancing from the playerbase until launch" revealed for what it is: yep, another lie. Or just plain ignorance being shoved off as someone else's fault, take your pick. I watched a developer roundtable -- held during a big PR push where they invited all the gaming sites to Norway to see the game -- months before release where they discussed social instancing. You want to avoid your hypocritical statements regarding server merges next? Right, the zones are "desolate" (another quote of yours) but server merges serve no purpose, since those same zones are already full to capacity with their "low population cap per instance". Moving on to another contradictory statement: you like pointing out retention numbers, yet argue against condensing the playerbase when the servers are clearly servicing less people than at launch. Where's the logic? I have no idea. You seem to have this idea that there's only one zone in the game, and there's no need for more players in that zone than 1 instance can handle. Guess what, there are a lot of zones. And a lot of levels. And a lot of people needing to accomplish something specific to their character's moment at a particular time of day. More players being together is only a good thing. There's just no other way to put it. This is such a fundamental aspect of MMO design that I'm surprised you fail to comprehend it. You can paint a picture of evil Funcom twirling its mustache over all the money it saved by merging half-full servers, but it's nonsense to anyone who ever played an MMO.

To your final point about discussing this in PM: You're missing the point, again. Your opinion isn't the important thing in this discussion. I'm fine with you bitterly clinging to your own distorted version of the facts. If it makes you happy, go nuts. But when you start proclaiming it in a public forum, to people who may not know any better and will take what you say on good faith, that's when I care. For too long the AoC trolls have poisoned every post here with their tripe. They deserve to be called out on it.
Reply

Posted: Dec 3rd 2008 12:29PM Mr Angry said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
Well I stand by my points. Bishop, thank for the debate, I see you've had this argument many many times before. I really hope you can see the game for what it really is, trash, and the poor way which customers have been treated.

I just don't agree with what you are saying, in essence. You are asking me for proof, but providing nothing substantial to challenge my point. Instancing done right (WoW, LotRO), instancing done so very wrong (AoC). Immersion breaking mechanics (mirrored instancing) to alleviate poor game design. No amount of server consolidation is going to change or bolster the feeling of community in AoC. Oblivion feels more alive than AoC and that's single player. If they totally remove this, great, a step forward, but that has not happened.

I find your tone has changed somewhat, so rather than exacerbating you further, I'll move on to another subject. My views are wholly positive on other subjects, but AoC is a red flag to me, I'd like to share my experiences, which appear to be shared by others.

For instance, just another point added to the ever incresaing list, empty high level dungeons at launch?

http://forums-eu.ageofconan.com/showthread.php?t=32851

Maybe not the most articulate, but accurate. Unfinished content that people paid a lot of money to enjoy deliberately released regardless of quality control and the reason why people dislike AoC now.

The reason to move to PM is because I felt we were dominating this thread and people might get a bit pissed off with our rantings. But given I had made my initial points and then to be accused of 'slander', 'lies' and 'poisoning' opinion, was something I wanted to resolve here as your point of view is very different from the general impression of Age of Conan. I did find your tone a little aggressive at times, I would have been a lot more receptive to what you were saying if you could temper that slightly, a little tip for the future.

You can fight AoC corner all you like, but to me and very many others out there, it's done unless you can outline what's good about it. Not your job I know, but my impression is not going to change. People will not be bitten twice and despite actually owning the game, I'll not pay anymore to revisit it, there was not enough substance there in the first place.

It might be improved now, but coming from where it was, that's saying very little. This game needed another year to be a triple A title, and given Funcom's apparent current wealth, it's even more evident how willing they were just to cash in on this at the player's expense at that time.

I applaud the efforts of the new staff (They have a thankless task ahead) and am sorry to hear of the redundancies, but in many case I'm sure these talented individuals will find projects which better fulfill both the expectations and potential of the genre, as I believe at Funcom, that was just not happening.

I hope the emergence of newer studios which are tapping into proven talent quickly snaps these guys and girls up. The blame doesn't lie with this resource, but the management of these assets.

Far from 'poisoning' a discussion I've tried to rationalize and evolve my opinion here, only to be accused of backtracking. I bought the collectors edition, I dismissed the promises of the in box items and DX10 compatibility, I gave Funcom a break. But to level up in the game and hit a wall with no direction, no goals was inexcusable. Funcom polished the game up to level 20 (and they could have done a much better job) and the rest was unfinished.

This was to deceive reviewers who typically dip their toe in the water when trying a game and to give a strong out of the box impression, why, because they knew it was a defective, incomplete product and would be for some time to come. The questing up to 45 was worked on, but rushed, no voice over work, just kill x rats on the whole. After 45, they had an outline, but the amount of content here could have been rushed off in the last week by a small team. Totally inexcusable, a complete management mess, a cash grab for boxed sales, worrying about the consiquences, after they had customers.

I didn't stump up the best part of $100 to 'hate' something, between the poor quality and the inaccurate promises of content, Funcom bought that on themselves. If by reading this someone else saves just $10, then that's great. I'm not 'hating on the game', I would like to offer my opinion, as you have yours.

Right now, people have grown up with MMO's, players have seen every excuse in the book. Funcom treated it's customers like children when they complained, and they didn't have a leg to stand on given their product was so poor. I do see a lot of what you have shared here echoed in Funcom's own official line, you seem to both have very similar points of view. There must be very few people that share your enthusiasm.

I'll let you have the last word, so go ahead. The initial title of this article outlines very clearly the direction of this game, and I feel very sorry for anyone who invested large amounts of time in this virtual space.

Thanks again for your input and enjoy the carrots :)
Reply

Posted: Dec 3rd 2008 2:24AM Nadril said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
Funcom didn't deliver what was promised, they didn't deliver it for months and months while lying through their teeth about how changes were so close. Seeing as you guy's are big analogy fans:

It's like ordering a cheeseburger, than finding out that upon taking the first bite that the pattie is from McDonalds, it's undercooked, there is no cheese and only a little bit of lettuce. After complaining the management tells you they will change it, but instead they simply add another undercooked McD's patty on it and ignore the fact that it still tastes like ass, even if it was "fully cooked".


That is Age of Conan for you. There is nothing else to argue about. Customers expected a product, they didn't get what was promised. I don't feel sorry for Funcom at all as they had all the time in the world to work on it.


So sure, enjoy your "fully cooked" McD's burger when you were promised a nice thick, juicy burger. Or, to stir the pot a bit, a Burger King burger :).

Posted: Dec 3rd 2008 9:52AM Anatidae said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
Funny to read Twisted and Angry there.

Although, I have to agree on the side of Angry, the game sucks. There are a few things that are cool about AoC, but in general it is not a good implementation of a MMO.

Oh, by the way MMO developers, instances just suck. I suppose instanced dungeons are ok, they work well in WoW. Battlegrounds/Scenarios are fun, but they suck the players out of your world making it barren. And when you start instancing your main world as some MMOs are doing, that almost immediately makes for a lame game.

Featured Stories

Engadget

Engadget

Joystiq

Joystiq

WoW Insider

WoW

TUAW

TUAW