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Reader Comments (11)

Posted: Oct 23rd 2008 10:42AM (Unverified) said

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Most online games where this issue could arrise have lines such as the following in their TOS:

"Notwithstanding anything to the contrary herein, you acknowledge and agree that you shall have no ownership or other property interest in the Account, and you further acknowledge and agree that all rights in and to the Account are and shall forever be owned by and inure to the benefit of Blizzard."

And other lines that indicate any item/character/etc that you "own" in game is in fact property of Blizzard (in the case of WoW)

If you take something from another player in WoW/other game with said TOS clause, the only rules you can be breaking are Blizzard's own, you can't be stealing unless you find a way to remove it from their servers into the real world (unlikely...) and in that case you're stealing from the game company, not the player.

So next time you're accused of stealing something, remind them that the original owner still owns the item/s in question and there has been no theft :)

Posted: Oct 23rd 2008 10:52AM (Unverified) said

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Your main points here wrt virtual goods seem to be that (1) the law has no problem dealing with unauthorized copying of someone else's virtual stuff, and (2) such unauthorized copying *isn't* theft.

I think it'd be helpful if you talked about what it *is*, in some popular legal systems? Is it just ("just") copyright violation? Or are there other relevant crimes or torts involved?

Posted: Oct 23rd 2008 10:54AM Ravious said

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Exactly. You oversimplify by completely ignoring the hazy part of the law that applies to this... the click-through contract that says you have license to play ONLY. You own no property.

A for effort though.

Posted: Oct 23rd 2008 11:06AM (Unverified) said

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That click-through contract seems to be on increasingly shaky ground. Also contracts between two parties are unable to override the operation of criminal law between one of them and a third party.

The (for example) World of Warcraft terms of use do not limit tort between the users themselves. In fact, Blizzard's argued that way in court.

Also, we're including virtual environments where rights may be vested in the users as a part of the terms of service.

Posted: Oct 23rd 2008 11:54AM (Unverified) said

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If you "steal" Stroker's stuff and then resell it - it is Plagiarism. Copying someone else's original works and then misrepresenting it as your own.

It is NOT theft by any stretch of the imagination.

As for the three tests - all of the above fail the financial test as far as Second Life is concerned, because according to linden Lab's CFO: Linden Dollars are TOKENS and not "currency" or "legal tender".

Therefore, the best he can charge anyone with is intellectual plagiarism. Which in the world of bits-and-bytes and all that is on definate precedient-setting ground.

And do remember that his lawsuit against what's-his-face was won be default - if I remember correctly and another by settlement. (I know I am misrememberring details) - but my point is that it isn't theft.

It's all spin to try to make people feel guilty.

The prooblem is this: I by a sexbed, I don't care who created it: I am concerned with the price and features. I buy it. Someone says "the person you bought it from stole it" - Well, unless the origianl creator wants to give me a free copy to replace this one - I don't care.

I spend good money for this and I'll be damned if I'm going to throw that money away.

Not my opinion, just stating the most likely scenario.

The fact is: when you are shopping - how do you know if what you are looking at is stolen merchandise> You CAN'T.

Therefore, this "awreness campaign" is simply a publicity stunt to get free advertising the way I see it.

But, meh.

Posted: Oct 23rd 2008 12:47PM (Unverified) said

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Tateru wrote:
"Also contracts between two parties are unable to override the operation of criminal law between one of them and a third party."

That is correct, but there's no theft that takes place if you assume the game operator owns everything on its servers. There is no overriding of criminal law in that case.

Further, the very idea that a "virtual sword" should be treated as the virtual equivalent of a real sword is a little silly. Swords in a game are not even objects. They're pointers to entries in a database.
What is it you 'own' if you believe you 'own' the stuff your avatar 'owns' in the game fiction?

Do you own the copyright to the sword's design? No, that's owned by the developer/publisher. Is there a particular set of data in-game that you own, that is separable from the rest of the world? No.
Again, it's just a pointer to a database entry/template.

So what is it you own? The database reference? (Clearly you don't own the database entry itself).

This decision was based on a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of "virtual items". It's understandable why this kind of fairly naive view might arise (it's probably easier for a judge to think of a virtual sword as an independent "item" because that's what a sword is in the physical world) but that doesn't excuse it.

Posted: Oct 23rd 2008 12:49PM (Unverified) said

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Oh, we don't think that a virtual sword should be treated like a real one. The law *does* in most cases treat them as they are - data-objects with value to the creator and/or owner.
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Posted: Oct 23rd 2008 12:54PM (Unverified) said

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That's quite premature, at least in the US. There's been little case law to establish how a virtual sword in WoW should be treated, for instance.

The creator, in this case, is Jagex, and as far as I know there are no US legal cases that propose that anyone but Jagex (or Blizzard, etc) is the owner of any of the items that Jagex created, that Jagex maintains in its database, and that Jagex sets the rules for access to.
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Posted: Oct 23rd 2008 4:16PM (Unverified) said

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my biggest problem with this is not if it is unlawful because it is not real or is real. if i put in 1000 hours (= about 6.25 months working 8 hours a day) to make something (wow) or too create something (second life.)

then someone suddenly steal's it or destory's it i would be very unhappy and will wonder if. i should continue playing a game or working in a virtual world if the law does not help me in that case.

Time is the most important commodity in the world with time i can create anything i so choice.

now there are two exceptions too that rule of mine

one: im in a PVP realm
Two: stealing is a game mechanic

but even with those i still feel like someone punched me in the gut

Posted: Oct 26th 2008 3:12PM (Unverified) said

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"also includes any intangible right considered as a source or element of income or wealth."

the legalese might be messing my understanding, but don't that means that when someone illegally acquires somthing, like a texture, they are depriving the author/seller of the income they would get by selling that thing to at least some of the people who will acquire the illegal copies, making the what has been stolen be not the data itself, but the source of income?

ps:kinda made it hard for discussions about the topic to be made clear when you mixed stuff representing achievements and such in games, and stuff created by users I think...

Posted: Oct 26th 2008 10:11PM (Unverified) said

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Loss of future income is one of those things that is usually factored into the amount of damages for a copyright infringement case.

So copying a texture is still a copyright infringement action, and not a crime or a theft under Law.
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