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Posted: Oct 17th 2008 4:11PM Ghede said

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For your 4 week old... http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0525949593/downandoutint-20

Comes recommended by Cory Doctorow

Posted: Oct 17th 2008 5:37PM Triskelion said

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I'm not a farmer, I don't own a Dragon mount, nor do I do the dailies. But don't tell me that there isn't a grind in WAR? Once you hit level 40, you then get to rank up your Renown level to level 80!!!!!!! No, that won't be a grind.......lol, noooooo. Have fun running from zone to zone to play whack-a-mole with the Keeps.
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Posted: Oct 17th 2008 6:34PM Abriael said

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And that's what you call a "grind"? LOL
Open RvR is never a grind, for the simple reason that it offers ever changing situations. The outcome of each battle depends on the combination of several human factors, not on the fixed and boring combination of an AI and an human that needs to fight that AI always on the same way, over and over.
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Posted: Oct 17th 2008 4:27PM Triskelion said

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I agree, I too found a lot of new things in WAR that I liked, as I did in AoC - but neither had enough to pull me away from my stable of lvl 70 chars in WoW. Also, the early RvR I did was very disappointing, buggy and laggy - and if that is what their endgame entails then I have no desire to grind away to get there.

In less then a month I will unleash my gleaming engines of destruction upon Northrend...........

Posted: Oct 17th 2008 5:10PM Abriael said

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And you will farm and grind more and more, like all the lemmings out there being farmed by blizzard. have fun with your mobs, wowboy :D
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Posted: Oct 17th 2008 4:27PM Mr Angry said

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Your thoughts are very similar to mine, wasn't planning on picking it up, happy I did and certainly enjoying certain aspects. It does lack the openness of WoW which is a perception problem for me, but overall it's a solid product and an enjoyable use of my time.

It's too hard to see where this is going, I hope they raise the bar on PvE and give people a lot more options as to how to spend their playtime, other than PvP, PvP and some PvP.

Posted: Oct 17th 2008 4:37PM Triskelion said

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I think/thought that PQs were awesome, I was stoked - but then after doing chapter 12 PQs I was ready to fall into a state of depression.

I loved the open group structure, but after leveling to 22 I didn't have one friend on my friends list outside of my guild. It was like an open concert in the park; we were all watching the same artist but people would just come and go........for me this left the game feeling very transient.

Posted: Oct 17th 2008 5:20PM Abriael said

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You know, friends don't appear in your friend list magically. The open groups put you in contact with others, but it's up to you to befriend them or not. Wonder why, my friend list is quite packed, maybe because I actually start conversations when i join an open group and people happily follow?

Takes two to tango.

As of PQ's they're awesome at high level as they were at low levels. Bosses get bigger and badder (just killed a black dragon and his master yesterday), battles get more epic as you have to plunge trough whole castles during the PQ. The concept definately doesn't get old and gives the games' PvE a whole new depth. A depth that other games simply don't have.
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Posted: Oct 17th 2008 5:20PM (Unverified) said

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If you don't have any friends on your list, its hardly the games fault, as I and everyone I know has many. As far as wow goes, have fun grinding, grinding, and more grinding. To me pvp is soooo much more fulfilling.
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Posted: Oct 17th 2008 5:26PM Triskelion said

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What a minute, you mean I need to talk to people? Oh wow, I had no idea.........yeah, if people stayed long enough, it's like a revolving door.

So, PQs get better because the mobs get bigger?

Here is the script for PQs:

Wave 1 - lots of easy, low hp mobs to kill
Wave 2 - fewer mobs, more hps, tougher to kill
Wave 3 - hero mobs, very difficult to kill

Run down the road a little bit "oh look another PQ", rinse and repeat = YAWN.

Yeah, have fun grinding PQs and scenarios for the next 4 years. WAR held my attention for a month, I didn't get sick of the WoW till I played the game for about 3 years, let me know if you're still playing WAR in 3 years running Phoenix Gate for the 40th time that day, or lagging your ass off in some meaningless RVR.
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Posted: Oct 17th 2008 5:27PM Mr Angry said

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Again I agree, the PQ's need more dynamic content if people are expected to repeat them more than once to get the rewards. Right now, I am grouped with a bunch of strangers, repeatedly killing the same mobs until we unlock a boss.

After the second run through, people bail, as they have done all they need and can't stomach it anymore, after four goes, I'm done, but feel bad about leaving the other two guys, even though I'm close to boredom.

It's the same encounter, and no real way to alter the outcome, other than to go through the linear steps. The only real achievement is usually on the first step, where you compete again another faction for kills, who are usually so heavily outnumbered, that they don't stand a chance.

Sure there might be multiple PQ's but the linear nature of each, an I do find the fact that they are tightly anchored to just one spot a bit annoying, make it less than the sum of the parts.

I don't really see how PQ's can work well as a core game mechanic, given you have to repeat content. It would be far more exciting to have individual players unlock a PQ which people would want to join because it took some work to get the unlock, so the grind aspect is absorbed into normal play, but the exciting grouping and facing a greater foe, is a shared and desirable experience, but you only have to experience it once.

I don't know how well these scale, but it appears that there are usually more per tier, but you have to do more of them. If there was a specific itemization reward, or a bit more back story to each, that would be great. But right now, people are just grinding through content that developers have spent time creating, and I don't think the player base is capitalizing too well on all the hard work that's been done.

It's a nice idea, it needs refinement

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Posted: Oct 17th 2008 5:44PM Abriael said

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The more you write, Leshrac, the more you show that you didn't actually play the game at all, this, or you didn't do the mechanics you talk about more than once or twice overall. There's so many more things to do in PQs than just "killing X number of mobs" that either you missed them all very conveniently, or you didn't even bother looking. There are prisoners to free, items to destroy, NPCs (or entire convoys) to protect, positions to capture or defend, and many, many more.

@Mr Angry: "If there was a specific itemization reward, or a bit more back story to each, that would be great" Each PQ has a specific itemization reward, that comes in the chest. Many of them even have unique looks (for instance yesterday i got a purple sword whose model i never ever seen in the game yet, visually speaking). This on top of the influence rewards of course.
Storywise, each PQ has a peculiar backstory that links with the backstory and the theme of the zone they're in and integrates with the questline. Of course, one needs to read them, like it happens with every MMO out there.
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Posted: Oct 17th 2008 7:00PM Mr Angry said

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I take it that paraphrasing my answer, you agree in principle with the rest of it :)

While you might like Public Quests, I think they are flat, I got no real sense of achievement from them, and they need to be improved. The stories are not set very well. You usually stumble across the PQ even before you find the quest giver.

On my screen it says, kill 100 dwarfs. That's great, but not much story. Then kill some rune-priests, then three stronger dudes, and do all that before the baddies do. Excuse me if I'm missing something, but that ain't much of a story you got going on there. If there is a more significant meaning, then Mythic need to make it more obvious.

If you really happy with them, then that's great. I'm outlining the issues I see with them, in terms of repeatability. I'm sure you would like more too, so it doesn't hurt to be critical of things you would like improved, it doesn't mean you are a fanboy or a whiner, it's reasonable to offer an opinion and expect feedback.



The PVP PVE point is absolutely moot. Just because you are fighting against humans, doesn't make you any more or less intelligent than the people you fight against, which can be considered of baseline intelligence.

PvE encounters offer challenge too, but just because you don't have some sort of nerdgasm when you realize that you might have temporarily inconvenienced someone, it doesn't register the same way.

It's a better indicator to skill as to how you fight with people rather than against them, be it raiding, pvp or even pve encounters. PvP can be horribly imbalanced due to itemization issues.

So I can't read the skills argument and assume PvP is for the clever kids, it just doesn't work out that way, if I was to argue the point fully, it was just who showed up in larger numbers with better gear. The fact that there is intelligence in a player is a nice to have, other factors override that in PvP.
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Posted: Oct 17th 2008 7:01PM Abriael said

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I can't even count the times in which i've beaten a larger number of people or i've been beaten by them due to a superior use of teamwork, the environment, or even, why not, plain luck or lack of thereof. In massive RvR equipement doesn't factor much, because it's a team effort, and the benefits of the single piece will be flattened.

What count the most are teamwork and the use of the environment, not to mention the ability to organize one's faction and to make it fight in a well coordinated way. PvE-centric games will never ever have that.

There might be some skill needed in fighting a raid boss, but that works for the first time, then the tactics go on the forums, and it becomes a single exercise of routine. The boss will simply apply a known and expected reaction to any action. There's nothing challenging in that, and it's BORING.

RvR is everchanging. No opponent will react in the same way than the one that came before him, and there's no way for PvE to reproduce this in the near future.
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Posted: Oct 17th 2008 7:06PM Abriael said

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Just an addition to the above, whish this place had a way to edit replies: PQs all have a story, you just need to actually join the dots. At the beginning of each phase youìll be given text explaining what happens (easy to miss in the chit chat, but it's there), something else can be found in the tooltip over the PQ objectives, more in the speech that you can hear from the bosses when you complete a stage, and much more is scattered in the zone around the PQ, expecially in the quests that lead to it. Finally, I don't know if you noticed it, every PQ has a quite extensive tome entry, that explains it's backstory, and gets additions every time you complete a stage. I'd say that's a lot of stuff to read.
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Posted: Oct 17th 2008 5:30PM Triskelion said

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I forgot to add a Wave -

Wave 2.b - find and loot crates

Posted: Oct 17th 2008 5:54PM Triskelion said

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And the more you write the more obvious it becomes that you are a blind WoW-hating, WAR fanboy.

I was in the CE Closed Beta, and leveled several chars past lvl 10, then in retail I had gotten a Witch Hunter to lvl 22. I'm not sure how much longer I needed to wait for the magic pixie fairy dust to get blown up my ass like it has for you, but I found it boring, a grind and repetitive. I did a shitload of BOs and Keep assaults/defends - only to login later to see that both flipped, wtf is the point?

Posted: Oct 17th 2008 6:12PM Abriael said

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LOL. You accuse anyone else to be a fanboy? That's pure comedy gold. You really didn't play much in your CE closed beta, since you didn't even notice all the different mechanics that are under PQs, because they're scattered everywhere, so either you're oblivious, or very conveniently selective in your memory, or a plain liar.

But what's most funny is to hear a wow fanboy defining any other game boring, grindy, and repeatitive, when absolutely NO game is more boring, grindy and repeatitive than wow, that's serving the same old soup to it's players since when it was released, with zero variation.

And your gripe about keeps changing sides? Nothing more laughable. You're competing against HUMANS. It's obvious that loosing will happen, and yes, it will happen often. You know, humans aren't like the silly, grindy mobs you fight in wow, they have an intelligence, and will require intelligence to defeat. If you can't take that, then you better play absolutely unchalenging PvE (or even better, single player) for the rest of your life.
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Posted: Oct 17th 2008 7:25PM (Unverified) said

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Is there any way to block comments from particular users? Because the number of comments from Abriael on every WAR (and WoW) article has gotten completely out of control. I suppose I wouldn't mind seeing them if they actually contributed something useful to the conversation, but all he displays is blind fanaticism and an unhealthy obsession with one particular game.

How many times are you going to question whether or not a poster has played WAR? Maybe it's time to graduate from grade-school level arguments and grow the hell up?

Maybe if Massively had the comment volume that Joystiq does his type of drivel would get drowned out, but as it stands right now, his comments make this site a seriously undesirable place to participate in.

Posted: Oct 17th 2008 8:04PM Abriael said

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Sorry if my correcting the misconceptions and plain lies of people that troll this site just for the sake of blindly bashing the game, challenges your insecurities.

Leshrac in particular seems to have made a personal point in bashing the game in every single comment thread about it, and I'm finding quite fun to show how is bashing is completely baseless and anti-fanboiysh.

On a general note, if people spew out silly lies or obvious misinformation about the game, of course I will question if they actually played the game, because if someone thinks that PQs are just "Stage 1: kill X enemies, Stage 2: kill X stronger enemies, Stage 3: kill Boss", then they're either trying to fed the other readers some lies (and intentional misinformation always deserves to be singled out and corrected), or they didn't play the mechanic enough to be able to comment about it.

A very sizeable amount of PQs steers away from that model, so if one has played it enough to know what he's talking about, he'll know. Simple as that.

Also, having played them in the beta doesn't count to much, since several PQs have been changed in their structure from the beta to release.
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