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Posted: Oct 11th 2008 10:57AM (Unverified) said

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Hmm, I don't quite know how to put this. Simply because I usually don't find the need or want to say something like this. But after reading your article I am very inclined to say..

Please, uninstall Warhammer Online right now from your computer. This game is not for you and clearly you will never understand it. Please go back to a PVE game.

Posted: Oct 11th 2008 11:17AM (Unverified) said

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Well that wasn't very constructive.

I'm not saying that tanks suck or anything. I'm simply saying that they weren't doing it for me at the early levels. It could be that DPS is just my class in Warhammer Online, because I've been doing great in Scenarios with my Sorcerer.
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Posted: Oct 11th 2008 12:14PM organiclockwork said

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That was hardly constructive at all.

His points are all entirely valid, and you're being a twit. The tanks, pre-rank 15, have very little abilities that can be used to actually -tank- in RvR fights.

I do have to point out, however, that you do have Taunt, which encourages people to either attack you long enough to get the debuff off or just let you wail on them with +30% damage.

Admittedly, knockbacks and perhaps a pull ability like the Marauder gets would allow Tanks to more actively tank in RvR, but as it stands, I think they've done an alright job at making tanks viable as tanks in RvR. The only problem, however, is that enemy players are not usually stupid. They know that a tank isn't going to die, so they won't attack them.

I don't know how exactly to remedy the situation, but I agree that perhaps -something- needs to be done.

As it stands, however, I find what there is to be adequate, though a "damage taken," stat in Scenarios would be nice.

Also, guard a healer and stick with it. Trust me, we love it.
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Posted: Oct 11th 2008 4:29PM (Unverified) said

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@pufonthis

You're the newb and need to L2P. Go back to your 1500 arena team and your "elite phat lewtz".

@Kyle Horner/Author

I agree and have made several feedback suggestions in-game, through email, and on the warhammeralliance forums about getting a seperate line for tank mitigation/assistance in scenarios.

There's also another ability that tanks get for a Slot 1 moral ability called Champion's Challenge obtained at Rank 16 which will take and lock you (the tank) and your target in place for 10sec. This ability is very, very, very good at protecting squishies from melee DPS or to stop a tank or even to prevent an enemy healer from running away.

@OrganiClockwork

Guarding a healer is almost pointless unless it's a Disciple of Khaine or Warrior Priest because most healers (if they're smart) are standing 100+ feet behind the battle to stay away from getting hit with AOE attacks and other problems with the front line. Otherwise, it's best to Guard a melee DPS or another tank (that help decline focus fire). That 30ft range of Guard needs to be changed to something more like 50ft or 60ft instead of something so small.


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Posted: Oct 11th 2008 6:49PM (Unverified) said

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@Mr. Pickles

I agree with most of what you said, but I've got to disagree about smart healers standing 100ft away. Contrary to what most people say, I'm finding more and more as I play my Archmage that standing so far away can be quite dangerous because of one thing: the Witch Elf (or Witch Hunter.)

If I'm that far away when one starts hacking at me, there's no way for anyone to help me before I'm dead. I have detaunts, an occassinal knockback, a damage shield, and plenty of heals at my disposal, but they still make short work of me. So I now try to stay in the middle of the pack most of the time.

If a Witch Elf pops out of the shadows and starts kicking my ass, she gets devoured by our ranged dps in seconds since I'm standing in plain sight in front of them. I'm also often able to maintain range with a tank to be guarded this way. The exception is if the enemy ranged dps starts focus firing on me, at which point I retreat to 100ft until it's safe to come back.

I can often avoid any deaths at all in scenarios this way (and by stacking defensive stats, which end up actually bringing me higher on the healing meter since I'm always healing rather than running back from the spawn point.) Anyway, that's what's working for me. =)
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Posted: Oct 11th 2008 12:01PM (Unverified) said

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I have noticed that healers and ranged dps seem stronger in the first tier. Tanks definitely do come into their own, so if you're enjoying the class, it will be worth the effort.

But sorceresses/bright wizards are fun too.

Posted: Oct 11th 2008 11:37AM (Unverified) said

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The only thing that would make a tank viable (in my eyes at least) would be a TAUNT!

I play with a buddy, he's an Iron Breaker (dwarf tank) and I'm an archmage.

T1 everything was dandy, I lingered in the back a bit, healed my buddy and watched as the nooblets started hacking away at him. T2 is a whole different beast. Opponents learned to play and they more or less ignore my buddy and go straight for lil'ol'robe wearing me. I die. Fast. Often. He just tries to get 'em off me, trying to get their attention, but they totally ignore him and go straight for the easy kill. After that he gets them of course and then he dies as well.

What's the point of a tank if he can't get the opponent to beat on him instead of the weaker players. Why not give the tanks a taunt that works on player characters by forcing them to switch target for a set amount of time? Seems like the most logical thing in the world to me, yet it's strangely absent.

Taunting! It's what tanks do!

Posted: Oct 11th 2008 12:14PM Abriael said

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Taunts that force players to change their target are one of the silliest abilities i ever saw in a MMORPG. There's nothing as annoying and utterly gamebreaking as having someone else "play for you" and not have the choice between ignoring a tank and facing the detrimental effect of such choice, or trying to dispose of him early.

In Warhammer tanks DO get a taunt early. Such taunt increase their damage on the taunted enemy by 30% for a limited amount of time. You think it's not useful? Maybe your ironbreaker still didn't understand how to use it alongside with his oathfriend mechanics. Because an IB with his grudge filled taunting someone is a force to be reckoned with. Also, maybe your ironbreaker friends forgets to put guard on you. Even if the enemy is not directly beating him, guard ensures that your level of protection increases tenfolds.

They also get another taunt (challenge) at level 20, that decreases by 30% all the damage done on his mates in a frontal cone area of effect. And this is MUCH better than a silly "target switch" ability.
But before level 20, guard and taunt, and their CC is more than enough to protect their mates extremely well, IF they have what it takes to play a tank, of course.

"protecting", that's what tanks do. And in warhammer Tanks don't even need to have the enemy beat on them all the time to protect someone. Sure, they need not to forget their basic abilities.
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Posted: Oct 11th 2008 3:53PM (Unverified) said

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So all you're actually saying is L2P. Nice.
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Posted: Oct 11th 2008 12:01PM Abriael said

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I'm afraid i have to be with pufonthis on this. Maybe a lil less radical, but I'm afraid you're the one that didn't understand how to play a tank.

Tanks are one of the things that in which warhammer really shine. You can spec them either to deal sizeable damage still retaining a great survivability or to be defensive beasts in situations that require it (and many situations do). They also get some of the best CC of the game.

Before level 15 (much before) you DO get a damage absorbing ability (guard, at 10), too bad that poor players that think their tank can play as a melee dps forget about it and don't use it at all. If you think it's unimportant because it's effect "remains invisible" (it doesn't, the caster protected with it remains alive. That's more than visible) then, well... maybe you simply aren't cut to play a tank. You can join the mass of ranged DPS that are soon forced to run for their lives every time they see a well played tank turn towards them.

At the moment, when a sorcerer sees my swordmaster, 90% of the times he's already as good as dead, unless he's ready to run fast and far. So much for his "instant gratification".

Conclusion: yes, you're the one that didn't get it. For me and for most people I've talked with, Warhammer's tanks are the most fun to play since the MMORPG genre has been created. They obliterate both WoW's and AoC's (just to use two recent examples). Sure, they require good tactics, ability to use positioning well, and a good player behind the keyboard to be as effective as they can be, but requiring a good level of skill is never a flaw.

Posted: Oct 11th 2008 12:20PM (Unverified) said

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I'm having great fun in RvR with my low-T2 Black Ork. He has some useful abilities that help in RvR and I expect it will get better as I level-up plus I am one tough hard-to-kill git with great armor, block chance (w/shield), damage reduction, hit points and a health-regen proc for my level.

Taunt can disrupt enemies -- especially casters -- and increases my damage on them for a few seconds; this is useful in solo PvE too, btw. I interpose myself between an approaching enemy and my ward(s) so if they try to get past me I hit them with a snare making it easier for my ranged attacker allies to "kite" them or escape. I have a damage sharing buff for an ally but I need to stay close and guard them -- which is what I should be doing anyway. I also have concentration-based power that lets me shield myself and allies behind me from ranged attacks.

All of these abilities were received at level 12 or earlier so saying low level tanks (at least Black Orks) are useless in RvR really depends on how you play them, imo.

Posted: Oct 11th 2008 12:48PM (Unverified) said

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Tanks are great. It would seem a lot of people still don't understand the mechanics of this game. We are all still learning.

I have two tanks. Things I do:

1. Snare anyone running toward the backline
2. Use guard on a healer, flag running or artifact holder
3. Taunt for 30% more damage
4. Knockback, knockdown

Mourkain Temple Exampe -

I have had a blast in here with my Chosen.

If the other team has the artifact I wait until I have enough moral to use my level 2 moral ability that makes me block almost 100%. Pop my resist aura and plunge into the other side right up to the guy holding the artifact.

This causes focus fire on me. If your team is with it they will now notice they are free to focus fire on the artifact bearer. The bearer will die almost instantly. I then grab the artifact (which is the hardest part =p )

Did this three times in a single game.

Tanks are great. It seems to me people just don't understand the mechanics of this game yet.

Posted: Dec 29th 2008 7:34PM (Unverified) said

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I've played my ironbreaker all the way to 27 so far and I have to say that my experience is pretty much the polar opposite. I kick ass in most scenarios :) Lovin the ironbreaker.

mmorpgslave.com

Posted: Oct 11th 2008 2:17PM LaughingTarget said

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My brother plays a Chosen and I play as a Zealot and we've pretty much got the dynamic down. In Tier 2, we tend to die only once or twice in an entire game at Morkain Temple. He guards me and taunts the guy, making it doubly hard to handle my Zealot and we simply double-team our way through the fights. He's learned how to effectively block access to me and we tear it up in RvR with little difficulty. When we were both 12, we took down an 18 Warrior Priest outside of the RvR zone, so no bolster effect. It wasn't even a contest, that Warrior Priest had no chance whatsoever.

Tanking isn't for everyone. Tanking in PvE is cake, tanking in PvP is incredibly difficult. There haven't been any games like WAR that have made tanking a viable option in a PvP game before so it will take a ton of time to get used to it. Keeping aggro is simple compared to getting another player to go after you. WAR has the tools, you just need to learn them.

Posted: Oct 11th 2008 4:18PM (Unverified) said

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Thanks for this article. What veteran players need to realize is that unless the game's mechanics rewards varied participation (not just reward for dpsing) then dps classes will again (as usual) be rewarded beyond the others.

If we do not want tanks and healers to be rare in war then their contributions to RvR and PQ content need to be fairly acknowledged and their influence & renown progression need to reflect their contributions.

WAR has the potential for VERY direct rewards for tanks and healers. Tanks could recieve 1 renown or influence/participation for each 100 damage mitigated, and healers could recieve 10 renown or influence/participation for every 15% or more direct heal they throw. These are just example numbers and of course could be tuned. The point is that the game mechanics should allow us to reward non-dps participation directly rather than a reward simply based on counting up how much dps you did.

Posted: Oct 11th 2008 4:32PM Abriael said

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Considering the fact that a tank normally survives MUCH longer than a normal DPS (and as such deals more damage over time), there's absolutely no need.

DPSes deal more burst damage, but their survivability is lower, so their total damage isn't that high.

Just to make a simple example, yesterday i netted 98k damage in a tier 3 scenario, and i'm almost never at the bottom of the damage scale.
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Posted: Oct 12th 2008 12:29AM (Unverified) said

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I'm sorry but you've missed my point. A tank is only doing their job when dps is surviving. Same with healers.

You need to reward tanks and healers for doing their job or they simply won't.
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Posted: Oct 11th 2008 4:27PM Abriael said

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Exactly. L2P. Sorry if it isn't "nice". But a tank that can't perform well in Warhammer has to follow that path. Looks like WoW made a lot of people a tad too used to have it easy.

Posted: Oct 11th 2008 5:47PM (Unverified) said

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I see what you're saying about the lack of tanks 'tanking' ability in RVR. Personally there are a few things which tanks excel at in PVP.

Personally one of my favourite tactics is just to charge into the thick of the casters and start flailing away. Although you probably won't take them down, you will force them to start healing themselves rather than say a DPS class. Since (Black Orcs) have such large health points the chances are the healer won't be able to burn you down quickly enough. So now a couple DPS will have to forcus on you.

Net result is 1 tank taking the attention of 2+ people. In tier one things this isn't particularly useful, but once you get to tier 2 then your really talking. You should start getting your roots now as well so you can catch the flag carriers.

Posted: Oct 11th 2008 8:18PM Jeromai said

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I see tons of badly played tanks in Warhammer. Then I see a few really good ones and the difference is profound. Not everyone is cut out for a strategic/tactical mindset where the focus is to protect your teammates while disrupting the enemy and staying alive. Good gear and proper positioning also helps.

I watched a bunch of T1 and T2 tanks as a DoK support healer/caster bodyguard. There were tanks in sub-par gear stacking strength for their DPS, running straight into a ten-man enemy zerg, practically a third of which were Bright Wizards. Alone. Goodness knows what they were attempting to achieve. But they soon became a green smeary slightly-charred paste on the ground.

There was the one exceptionally rare tank who turned Phoenix Gate into a win for Destruction. D on my server rarely wins because everyone zergs off to the middle and has no concept of defence, letting an Order just sneak around the side and snatch the flag away. This Orc sat at our flag and camped it. I felt obliged to camp with him since this was showing exceptionally rare strategic thought. :) He threw my first ever 'save the runts' on my DoK. Though slightly boring, we disrupted and tore up about 8-10 Order folk, coming in singly and in twos and threes, through the course of the game. Any one of them would have nabbed the flag if we weren't there. Because of the synergy, neither of us were in any real danger of health bar harm, let alone death.

It's not for everyone, tankiness. It was an effort of will to push my Black Orc past level 10 on preview weekend because he was just so slow to damage things compared to DPS. And I decided that trying to order gud and best plan combos was too disruptive to my standard skill layout, and insanely tactical to keep track of while in combat. But the level of strategy involves appeals to some stalwarts. So let 'em tank.

Me, I found my own niche as melee DPS. Cannily surviving by the skin of my teeth, taking down casters and preying on the weak, feeling the focus fire seconds before I'm even targeted and getting out of the way to prevent it. Some can do it, some can't. Same as healing.

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