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Reader Comments (44)

Posted: Jun 20th 2008 4:48PM (Unverified) said

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"I've already played Warhammer. It was called World of Warcraft."

Mythic has to just love comments like this.
They need the SOE marketing team to work on it. Heck if SOE can convice customer that giving away $65 worth of stuff to ex-subscribers is a good thing, then they should have no trouble convincing people that WAR WoW.

Seriously, when I asked my eq2 guildes what they were moving to I would hear over and over. "War, nar, it's just wow with a new skin"

Mythic has a huge perception problem....
... then again maybe it's the truth.

Posted: Jun 20th 2008 5:01PM (Unverified) said

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Is it just me or does this guy sound like a complete moron? I know for sure if I saw him out in public somewhere I would try to avoid him.

Besides that I don't think he really had anything interesting at all to say about MMOs.

Posted: Jun 20th 2008 5:29PM (Unverified) said

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Dead on.
That was nearly unreadable.
I have no idea what he was trying to say about WoW AH...
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Posted: Jun 20th 2008 5:50PM cowthulhu said

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I didn't have a problem. Sorry if you're retarded.
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Posted: Jun 20th 2008 6:29PM (Unverified) said

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As far as the AH thing goes, he was asking the question of why doesn't the AH let you posts requests as well as offers? For instance, I could post a request for a stack of wool cloth at the price of 3g. The 3g would be subtracted from my gold until the request expired. If you have the stack of wool cloth, you "give" it to the AH and get 3g. I get a stack of wool cloth in my mailbox.
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Posted: Jun 20th 2008 5:11PM (Unverified) said

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OK, I guess my first post got deleted cause I called the guy a name. Way to censor! Anyway.. this time I'll just say that he did really have anything interesting to say about MMOs. His speech was pretty incoherent if it was transcribed just the way he said it.

Posted: Jun 20th 2008 5:13PM (Unverified) said

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Wait, now my first post is back again. Wierd. Anyway in my second post there was a typo.. I mean "didn't"

Posted: Jun 20th 2008 5:17PM vicryixiv said

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Puf, do you think foreign people who speak broken english are morons too cause they dont "talk american?"

This guy is having a discussion about MMO's that's essentially a different language than you as a player. I believe he said that like 3 times.

What he has to say is actually very interesting, if you give a rat's ass about the creative process of building a game. How someone's mindset and personality shape the game, which in turn shapes the players who play the game. How a designer's perception shapes player interactions.

Sorry he didnt confirm that shaman's are gimp or whatever trivial nonsense you were expecting him to comment on.

Posted: Jun 20th 2008 5:44PM (Unverified) said

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My respect for Richard Bartle just dropped a couple of notches after that interview; and he is a teacher?! That man seriously needs an editor! His responses to questions just ramble on without making any meaningful statements and (I hope this is the transcriber's fault but) complete sentences would have been helpful too.

I would never hire him as a consultant. I've seen far more and better ideas for improving specific games and MMOGs in general on public forums that any game designer can scoop for FREE.

Posted: Jun 20th 2008 5:58PM (Unverified) said

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Ok . . . I stopped reading here "I've already played Warhammer. It was called World of Warcraft."

Please. That's the sort of asinine comment I'd expect from a forum troll, not a supposedly serious and respected designer and intellectual. He hasn't played the game, and he's not following the game -- he's above that, didn't you hear? Just . . . wow.

The claim that in order to really understand good game design you have to HATE playing games is also pretty daft. 'I'm beyond playing games, I'm a DESIGNER'. Sooo . . . the only people who can make good games are ones who can't stand to play them. Sure, that makes sense. I doubt the Spielberg analogy is apt either -- has Spielberg claimed he finds watching movies painful? (that's actually a question, not rhetorical, has he?)

I agree with his comments about WoW, but hey, I didn't have to hate playing MMOs to come to the same conclusion :p

I had a lot of respect for this guy until I read this article - he just sounds like another hyper-inflated egomaniac like Richard Garriot or John Romero. He helped invent MuDs, great, kudos to him. If he's such a genius with a hand on the pulse of good MMO design . . . where's his best-selling MMO?

Posted: Jun 20th 2008 7:02PM Ayenn said

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It is not an issue of "hating" it is an issue of not being able to play the m for "fun". It is actually an inadvertent but inherently professional "problem" or "attitude". Ask any respected MMORPG developer if they can only play MMORPGs for fun and they will tell you just about the same thing Dr. Bartle has said here.

My B.S. is in literary criticism... I cannot read fiction or watch movies "for fun" any longer. I think to much about the structure of such things too much to blindly enjoy them.

Likewise, with a graduate degree in New Media Studies with a focus on narrative structure and process in MMORPGs I no longer have the capability to have "fun" with MMORPGs... I would absolutely LOVE to be able to but i no longer have that capacity.

Analysis is a bitch, especially when you are deeply trained to do it because it situates itself in every part of your life.
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Posted: Jun 21st 2008 1:07PM (Unverified) said

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QFT PeterD's first couple sentences, that's pretty much what I was going to post. He comes off like a 13 year old when talking about his WoW characters, and I didn't hear any original ideas about MMOs.

"Karazan is dumb, the LFG tool is broken, I don't have fun playing WoW but I can't wait for the new expansion." Wow, thanks for the incredible insight, designer-man... That's pretty much what everyone else says, too.
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Posted: Jun 20th 2008 6:37PM (Unverified) said

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In that whole wall of self-aggrandizement, did he actually say ANYTHING about how he'd make WoW better other than "add buy orders to the AH system to go with the sell orders"?

(which is a good idea, true, but damn, the amount of my life I just wasted reading his verbal masturbation to hear that one idea)

Posted: Jun 20th 2008 10:45PM (Unverified) said

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btw, since it's now become de rigeur in this conversation to wave one's credentials around, I was slamming Dr. Bartle as a professional game developer, not as a gamer. Although I must confess my work is on the technical side, not the design side (probably the reason I have such low tolerance for his waffle).
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Posted: Jun 20th 2008 6:52PM Ayenn said

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I have seen Dr. Bartle speak and I have read many of the articles and books he has written. From that I can tell you that interview was transcribed. He is a gestural speaker. Almost ½ of what he is trying to communicate is not in his spoken word but in his gestures.

Dr. Bartle is NOT speaking to players, which is a majority of this site’s readership, he is speaking to developers in the field and getting into the field. The language he is using, aside from the absences because of the unseen gestures, is language many of us use.

I understood perfectly what he was saying and I agree with him completely as a designer and an academic in the field of MMORPG design and New Media Studies (but not as a player because, like Dr. Bartle, I’m not actually a player). A designer meta-thinks about and around their projects. Decisions are made in regard to that meta-thinking… decisions that are not actually easily vocalized in a clearly understandable language for the players of MMORPGs. Hell, my department leads often act as interpreter for me IN meetings because my basis of understanding is not gamer-centric it is academic in origin.

If you are not a lead developer/director for a MMORPG or you are not one of us few who have studied or do MMORPG development in an academic setting (meaning the humanities) your misunderstanding or inability to get what he is talking about should mean you need to take a step back from this article and really think about what he is saying. In other words; if you are playing these “games” or are exploring VWs for the “fun” of it (meaning you have fun with them as a consumer) understanding what he is telling developers (he states he is talking to developers in the article) may be difficult for the average player, as opposed to the ease a researcher, to understand.

Also, as a player you must realize almost all of the MMORPGs the people who read this site play are HEAVELY influenced if not inspired by Dr. Bartle’s work either directly or indirectly. This is the man who designed the FIRST MUD while still in college. He is essentially what Gygax is to PnP RPGs for MOGs. He is the original developer of the genre of which Massivly.com is devoted to and has been studying, researching, examining and developing MOGs from the very beginning… literally.

Posted: Jun 20th 2008 7:25PM Keen and Graev said

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Bartle is great, but saying something like "I’ve already played Warhammer. It was called World of Warcraft." makes him look incredibly ignorant. If he meant it as a joke then Massively you didn't do a good job at making it come across that way. It came across as an asinine remark in an interview that is already borderline pointless.

Sorry, not impressed at all.

Posted: Jun 20th 2008 7:31PM Keen and Graev said

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First message didn't appear. No email came. I figured it got lost in cyberspace. I rewrite my post, submit it, and find out that the previous appeared as well. Argh.
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Posted: Jun 20th 2008 7:29PM Keen and Graev said

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Bartle is great. Glory to him for creating muds and fathering whatever. But saying something like "I’ve already played Warhammer. It was called World of Warcraft." makes him look incredibly ignorant. If he meant it as a joke then Massively you didn't do a good job at making it come across that way. It came across as an asinine remark from someone who is either on their way out or gone from this generation of gaming.

Sorry, not impressed at all by this interview.

Posted: Jun 20th 2008 8:28PM (Unverified) said

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I take issue with the entire "not being able to play games for fun" anymore thing. I have a Post Graduate degree in Computer Games Technology and am currently working on my Masters degree in the field and I thoroughly enjoy playing video games. Without that enjoyment I would have never gotten into the field. In my opinion, if you're unable to enjoy playing a video game, you cannot create a quality product.

Posted: Jun 21st 2008 12:08AM Ayenn said

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I ABSOLUTELY disagree. it is a way to observe or a way of seeing. people with deeply analytic minds often have a difficult time separating such things. It is a difference in type of vision, not retardation.

as far as a blanket statement about the whys and why nots of doing ANYTHING goes...

ther e is an exception to every rule, including this one.
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