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Reader Comments (11)

Posted: Jun 8th 2008 11:35PM tk421242 said

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Nice article. PVP can really make or break a game for me, I enjoy PVE but a non-programmed human opponent adds a fresh ingredient to what would otherwise just be an RPG.

Have not decided where I stand on AoC PVP as I am only lvl 21 and have only done about 20 casual fights, but from what I have seen thus far it seems good. I am curious as to the PVP xp rewards and the types of equipment available from it. I remember when I first read about the 'blood tokens' system for this game a long time ago and being able to earn tokens from PVP and lose tokens in PVP, and thinking that it gave a nice edge to combat and true consequence, but that was abandoned for just PVP XP.

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Posted: Jun 9th 2008 12:38AM (Unverified) said

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So which model is more fun? The only thing that supports the EVE PVP model is the thought that you've seriously hurt your opponent when you win a pvp battle. So... the EVE model is built on sadism?

I have to enjoy hurting people to gain satisfaction from winning a PVP battle in EVE Online?

I have to say that the AoC pvp model has been very satisfying. Sometimes I win, sometimes the enemy wins, but either way I can laugh about it and not worry about winning or losing, just fight for fun.

As for large, world-changing battles, I disagree that this could not be implemented with AoC's model. You just have to create a system that keeps track of factional victories and then assign a victory or defeat system that assigns appropriate consequences to each.

True you can't bludgeon your enemies into goo, but only sadists care about actually hurting people versus simple victory.
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Posted: Jun 9th 2008 7:42AM WitchDrAsh said

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I don't entirely agree.

If you're likely to cause serious damage to another player, or atleast major major inconvenience you are more likely to think about the attack.
Take, for example, if in AoC, or WoW, which seem similar in PVP, they implemented permenant equipment loss and you went around griefing, what would happen? Eventually you'd make a ton of enemies and you'd be killed on sight regularly, meaning your decent equipment would be utterly destroyed on a regular basis. It gives more meaning to PVP, most players are likely to take serious consideration as to whether or not to attack because the repecussions of random ganking becomes significant as you make enemies.

Low penalties to death in PVP make it less meaningful and more annoying, in many ways, as you are far more likely to just lash out at people at random, and be randomly killed more, it is more likely to encourage killing for a reason, not just, I'm bored, oh look some lower level *smack*
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Posted: Jun 9th 2008 1:53PM (Unverified) said

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In eve, I have PVPed for many reasons.

Protecting alliance assets, providing security for alliance mining and logistical operations, inflicting monetary and morale damage on enemy alliances. For most of those, I don't pvp for any kind of profit, my Alliance supports me by refunding me a basic ship loadout based on the ship i was flying. I lose some cash and there is almost no chance of profit.

Now, when me and 1 to 10 other guys go for a roaming gang through enemy territory, there is a chance I will profit. Since its not an alliance sanctioned operation we don't have to turn in dropped modules and loot from ships we kill. These can give some profit, but mostly exist to be fun and inflict monetary damage on those that my alliance sees as enemies.

Solo pvp for me was rather profitable, typically I would hunt for enemy miners and cargo ships. A lgood run might result in me inflicting 100million isk of damage while one really risking 20 million. I also get to keep anything an enemy ship drops. Typically this would be tech 2 and faction items (Wow Blues basically) and occasionally i might even get a deadspace or complex item off an unwary, but rich ratter( Purples basically). This provided fun for me, and furthered the goals of my alliance. This made my alliance safer, which in turn gives me more time to make money via ratting. What helps the alliance typically trickles back to the individual players.

My Corporation left its alliance. Right now I pvp to keep the small little dead end pocket safe and free of enemies. If people feel like they will die whenever they go near my corps space, its tends to keep them away, and thus my corp makes more money via mining, ratting, and manufacturing. Once again, it trickles back to me, and I make money from the pvp. There was also a point where a neutral entity was cutting into the business of my corp. They had been unfriendly before, so my corp declared them as a legal target. While my corp lowered prices, I and other corpies, killed their miners and disrupted their logistics. They eventually left the area.

I guess the point of my longwinded story is, people who pvp solo pvp for pvp sake or to grief people.

People in corporations and alliances tend to pvp for the benefit of their alliance or corp which in the end benefits them.

Few people directly make all their income from pvp itself.

Its not sadism, its the fact that, when you kill someone, you both put something on the line and you won. They may not have that ship ready to fight again for a week, unless they are rich.

No game except for eve makes me start sweating and gets my heart racing because I might get killed.
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Posted: Jun 9th 2008 2:58PM Brendan Drain said

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I find both systems are fun for different reasons and in different ways. EVE Online makes your fights matter and as Ash already pointed out, the risk of loss means that people don't engage each other at every available opportunity. It's not about sadism or enjoying inflicting losses, though I know some people may fall into that category. The very real losses opens doors to avenues of gameplay that are otherwise not possible such as piracy, wars and territorial politics. Empires rise and fall based on the outcome of large-scale pvp campaigns.

Age of Conan is a casual fantasy deathmatch. When you come across someone lower level than you, there's no reason not to kill them. As you say, though, it's as fun to be killed as to kill. I find myself having more fun in AOC PvP lately because it's new and I can pick it up and put it down whenever I want.

I still prefer EVE's system, I wouldn't have played for over four years if I didn't. The Empyrean Age patch tomorrow is going to add a lot more PvP to my gameplay which should also be a lot of fun.
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Posted: Jun 9th 2008 2:21AM (Unverified) said

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Weird to compare these two games, as I don't think there is any other MMO, at least no mainstream one, that compares to EVE Online. It's all on it's own.

I still don't think AoC gets PvP right, because in the grand scheme, it's overall effect and purpose, are limited.
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Posted: Jun 9th 2008 1:51PM Brendan Drain said

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With both games lauded for their PvP gameplay, I decided they'd be two good games to compare on their relative merits. I play both games and have found the PvP in both fun for completely different reasons. I didn't initially think AOC's PvP would be good but it was a lot of fun in its own way.

I still prefer EVE's PvP style, of course, and the Empyrean Age expansion should help with the long downtimes between fights.
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Posted: Jun 9th 2008 12:18PM (Unverified) said

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Hm. I'm still waiting on an Ultima Online 2.0. It would combine the best from both worlds..well, hopefully. It would have to be under a different name though, as EA owns Ultima Online :( Considering they're slaughtered the original (ninjas, making it 3d, etc) I don't think they could be trusted with a new one.

Anyways, great (and interesting) post. My Age of Conan impressions are at my blog ( http://trashflavoredtrash.com )
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Posted: Jun 9th 2008 4:02AM (Unverified) said

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Holy shit, that "Clear Skies" video was the most awesome thing I've ever seen. If EVE was half as cool and interesting as that video, I'd actually play it!

I hope he makes more. I'll be waiting... and watching when he does.
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Posted: Jul 13th 2008 5:26PM (Unverified) said

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I think there is many things in AoC that makes it a great game for PVP action. AoC have a platform that can allow as much sabatoge and cut throat type of PVP as in Eve.

One of the moments I will always remember in a MMO is the fall of the Bruce Alliance. There was a full corp of meta gamer that ended up getting into the ranks and destroyed an equivalent of $16,000 US and in result collapsed the rules of Fountain in one fell swoop. They have been planning this strike for over a year and have been waiting to make their move.

There are not many games that have such intensity and cut throatness to have hackers and spys for vents, corps, and forums.

I find that big moves and operations can be possible in Age of Conan. Especially with the cost of Battle Keeps and Legendary keeps which are soon to come, will be an exponential lost depending if it is T2, T3, or legendary. Operations like this can promote meta gaming and have such intensity as Eve.

I find that it isn't about losing experience or having a negative effect in a solo aspect for AoC, but more as losing a Guild City as a whole which is a very big loss. I find it true about Eve as well, that a single player really cannot lose a really significant amount (unless of course you are dumb enough to fly larger T2 ships into hostile areas) vs. the amount one can lose through a corporate battle or espionage.

P.S. Full T2 city materials = Iron Granite Yew Electrum
TOTALS 7000 24320 12480 2100
Full T3 city materials = Duskmetal Basalt Oak Gold
TOTALS 101,000 254,200 125800 20600

For a full T3 city, we are looking at a total of 547,500 Units of Materials for a full Teir 3 Keep in South poitain. (Each city has different amount, but it is fairly close in number).
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Posted: Aug 20th 2008 3:35AM (Unverified) said

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While there are always things to disagree on regarding this topic.

This article shows a deep understanding of current day PvP systems and I applaud you.
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