No no no, we're not talking about that death penalty. We're talking about the MMO death penalties that seem to cause people to outright quit games. It's a tedious line between what's a good death penalty and what's a bad one; and no one seems to have found the perfect fit just yet.
Snipehunter at Dopass.com has the opinion that Age of Conan's tombstone debuff death penalty is too punishing. His argument is that applying a debuff to a player just means that their chances of successfully removing the tombstone from where they died (and subsequently removing the debuff) are now worse. If they couldn't kill the monster the first time round, how can they kill it with the debuff in place?
On the other side of the fence are those who believe that death penalties don't go far enough. The common concept here is that weak death penalties make death meaningless. If you just keep resurrecting and keep throwing yourself at an enemy, it's eventually going to die. The challenge of beating it before you perish has now been removed.
Snipehunter, a designer who worked on the fallen Auto Assault, looks at light death penalties differently. Sure, there are no direct penalties, but he asserts that the death itself is a penalty. Driving back to where you were from the INC repair stations in Auto Assault took time, and the repair stations healed the car over time as well.
Either way, his article highlights one very important point -- no one's found that happy medium yet. Looks like the creation and implementation of a death penalty will be an argument that game designers will have to continually wrangle with each game they create.
Reader Comments (11)
Posted: May 31st 2008 10:08AM Rollins said
Age of Conan's death penalty is nothing, unless you're in an area where the nearest resurrection point is far off. The debuff you get is so small that it's nearly insignificant.
Posted: May 31st 2008 12:47PM Seraphina Brennan said
It really is very small. What, like -2 to your stats for 30 minutes for each one?
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Posted: May 31st 2008 10:25AM (Unverified) said
someone should just make a game where different servers have different death penalties light to harsh. you could also scale the chance for rare item drops in some way to this so that if its a bigger risk there are higher odds of getting a good item versus lower odds for less risk.
Posted: May 31st 2008 11:19AM Brendan Drain said
I don't believe there IS a happy medium. In my experience, systems with massive death penalty are fun and those with virtually no death penalty are fun but once there's some kind of token death penalty, it all becomes quite irritating.
Examples of heavy penalties would be EVE Online and Runescape. In EVE Online, your ship is destroyed permanantly when you're beaten in pvp and you have to go buy a new one. In runescape, you drop all but your three most expensive items when you die.
When EQ2 launched, they had the spirit shard system where you had to return to your body and retrieve your shard to remove the death penalty debuff and some of your xp debt. This sounds a lot like AOC's system (though I haven't played AOC much yet outside of testing). EQ2 eventually removed the spirit shard system and now has a tiny, indignificant token death penalty of something like 0.2% xp debt per death, which is removed by killing a single enemy.
Obviously, a pvp game needs to have some form of death penalty to give meaning to pvp. If being killed doesn't mean you lose something, you haven't really died -- you've teleported to the resurrection point. In fact, a friend and I who played both WoW and EQ2 together used to do this all the time, using suicide as a mode of transportation. When death penalties are so low that this is a viable option, you know something's wrong with a game.
Examples of heavy penalties would be EVE Online and Runescape. In EVE Online, your ship is destroyed permanantly when you're beaten in pvp and you have to go buy a new one. In runescape, you drop all but your three most expensive items when you die.
When EQ2 launched, they had the spirit shard system where you had to return to your body and retrieve your shard to remove the death penalty debuff and some of your xp debt. This sounds a lot like AOC's system (though I haven't played AOC much yet outside of testing). EQ2 eventually removed the spirit shard system and now has a tiny, indignificant token death penalty of something like 0.2% xp debt per death, which is removed by killing a single enemy.
Obviously, a pvp game needs to have some form of death penalty to give meaning to pvp. If being killed doesn't mean you lose something, you haven't really died -- you've teleported to the resurrection point. In fact, a friend and I who played both WoW and EQ2 together used to do this all the time, using suicide as a mode of transportation. When death penalties are so low that this is a viable option, you know something's wrong with a game.
Posted: May 31st 2008 11:42AM (Unverified) said
I'm not usually one to toot WoW's horn, but I think their death system is pretty good. It's not harsh, but I avoid it since the run/respawn is a pain.
Posted: May 31st 2008 12:40PM Jeromai said
Using Age of Conan as an example of a punishing death penalty is laughable. It takes no time at all to click a tombstone - so if you did get mauled by some horrible boss, you could run back, right-click the tombstone and get right back to fighting sans any penalty, with the exact same chances as before.
And if you had no chance at all on the boss - why, just leave the tombstone there. There's no obligation to make a run back, unlike WoW. There are no durability hits on equipment. After some time has passed, it just goes away. Supposedly earning experience also helps to get rid of it.
I've leapt off cliffs and jumped into rivers to die on purpose simply because I wanted to rez somewhere more convenient, with less running distance to cover.
The debuff is also barely noticeable. In LOTRO, the hitpoint and mana hit you take is quite visible. And oh, the equipment damage kept my guardian constantly broke.
Ditto Guild Wars. GW, especially, shows off the declining chances for success quite well - until you're reduced to -60% zerging or restarting for a new try.
And if you had no chance at all on the boss - why, just leave the tombstone there. There's no obligation to make a run back, unlike WoW. There are no durability hits on equipment. After some time has passed, it just goes away. Supposedly earning experience also helps to get rid of it.
I've leapt off cliffs and jumped into rivers to die on purpose simply because I wanted to rez somewhere more convenient, with less running distance to cover.
The debuff is also barely noticeable. In LOTRO, the hitpoint and mana hit you take is quite visible. And oh, the equipment damage kept my guardian constantly broke.
Ditto Guild Wars. GW, especially, shows off the declining chances for success quite well - until you're reduced to -60% zerging or restarting for a new try.
Posted: May 31st 2008 12:46PM Seraphina Brennan said
I agree on AoC having a pretty lax death penalty. I think I died 3 times in a small area in one night, and I was able to get back all three of my tombstones with ease.
In the source material's defense, he hasn't seen the AoC tombstone system yet. But, in my opinion, he might want to reconsider his own sources. I just haven't had any problem with the debuff.
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In the source material's defense, he hasn't seen the AoC tombstone system yet. But, in my opinion, he might want to reconsider his own sources. I just haven't had any problem with the debuff.
Posted: May 31st 2008 1:44PM (Unverified) said
@Colin: Yeah, that's true, though the guy does mention that the AoC debuff is pretty light. Still, back when I was a 10th level Herald of Xotli that stupid kill Renton quest kicked my ass until I was 14th level. I couldn't get my tombstones back from that fight to save my soul, so I get what he's saying. it wasn't a big deal though, I just left 5 stones there and wandered off. after that I just hunted in underhalls until I'd leveled enough to take that fight.
Posted: May 31st 2008 3:53PM (Unverified) said
AoC's death penalty is nothing, and only once could I not get back my tombstone, which is because I died in a lava river.
Lesson learned: Don't blindly follow the map like some idiot driver with a GPS system. Actually look where you are going.
Lesson learned: Don't blindly follow the map like some idiot driver with a GPS system. Actually look where you are going.
Posted: May 31st 2008 5:16PM koehler83 said
Ironically, LOTRO's lack of a death penalty was one of the reasons I quit.
A death penalty is a motivator not only for yourself, but for your group. No one gives a crap if you die when they know you'll just respawn and be back in 2 minutes.
A death penalty is a motivator not only for yourself, but for your group. No one gives a crap if you die when they know you'll just respawn and be back in 2 minutes.
Posted: Jun 1st 2008 5:22AM Jouka said
L2's death penalty is the harsh's ive exp. but thats what makes it a hardcore pvp game, losin 4% exp. when your 75+ is like hours of grinding.
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