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Reader Comments (19)

Posted: Jan 26th 2008 5:31AM (Unverified) said

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Actually I am not surprised. I used to have Orange broadband and it was absolutely rubbish. At peak times it slows down to a crawl and we are talking broadband here.

Posted: Jan 26th 2008 6:40AM (Unverified) said

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That is a pitty though. It was a excellent event.
I wonder if Stephane zugzwang had these issues, I saw him coming and going a couple of times.

Posted: Jan 26th 2008 12:29PM (Unverified) said

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Tateru, yes, we get it that you are a big and enthusiastic booster of net neutrality.

You don't seem to have a viable way to pay for the overuse of the Internet by just a few people who overuse it, however. Why shouldn't they pay? If a kid next door on a wireless wants to use my building's free wireless to bit-torrent down movies that are pirated off the Internet all afternoon, why should everyone else pay, or be slowed down? Make him pay.

Second Life is a very intense user of packets, and I'm sorry, but it seems likely that this free ride can't go on forever, that the users and makers of SL might be expected to pay something more for that heavy use.

Net neutrality breeds the tragedy of the commons. The opposite is net social responsibility.

I find it odd that you had to use this particular story to flog your net neutrality stuff, however, as the events have been great, well-attended, and with only the usual SL crashing that happens all the time anyway.

Posted: Jan 26th 2008 5:57PM (Unverified) said

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I expressed no opinion on the matter, though I see you've seen fit to invent one.
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Posted: Jan 26th 2008 2:07PM (Unverified) said

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Hi,

As one of the people who have been working hard on Orange's presence in Second Life, I am very surprised by what I learn here.

Unfortunately, having been away from home and office during the past days, I don't have any accurate information to share with you at this point. However...

According the information forwarded by Metaversatility, the problem is certainly limited to Orange UK and I would like to remind that Orange is an international telco operating in several european countries.

So far, I can tell you that, since we opened Orange Island on Oct.26th, we keep trying to organize compelling and meaningful events (concerts, identity summit, virtual arts week, ...) and we never heard about such connexion issues. The only problems we had were strictly restricted to SL platforms usual constraints and limits.

Being a french resident myself for more than a year, I never suffered from any restriction and suppose the same for spanish, polish or dutch SL users.

I would also like to mention that, last year, France Telecom/Orange (and other ISPs) was sued along with Linden Lab by a french rightwing so-called family protection association and that we supported Linden Lab lawyers and helped debunking the file as well as advocating free usage of SL in our country despite the accumulated bad press around it.

As you noticed, Orange is a huge company spanning over several countries which have their own operation policies and we will investigate this situation as soon as we are back to our offices.

In the meantime, we will continue to work hard at building our community in SL according our vision based on a respectful approach of residents' culture and amazing creativity.

Best regards

Posted: Jan 26th 2008 3:52PM (Unverified) said

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Having spent some time being bounced around the call centres - I am informed it will be at least another 24 to 48 hours before Orange UK customers will have access to SL

Posted: Jan 26th 2008 5:58PM (Unverified) said

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That's quite a while. I'm presuming you didn't get any information as to the actual cause, otherwise you'd have said.
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Posted: Jan 27th 2008 7:03AM (Unverified) said

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Actually, Tateru, you *are* expressing an opinion here -- either you are unwittingly passing along an agenda-inspired disgruntled campaign of some users of Orange, or you seized on this very, very sketchy angle to this "news story" as a hobby horse, I can't see which. Of course, you could let us know your own views on "net neutrality" if you in fact *do* oppose it, but I think it's fairly safe to conclude that you do *not* from your choice of this very trumped-up angle of a news story, and your persistence in imagining that this company is up to something diabolical that is "not net neutrality".

ISPs, particularly European ISPs I've noticed, often have problems with SL, and I don't think you can suspect evil "net partiality" or whatever you expect the opposite of "net neutrality" to be.

And again, I pose the question: if Second Life is very packet-intensive or whatever, and a company is faced with heavier demand from the few users of its service on the whole who are burdening the system with this demand, what are they to do? They have to run the service. They can either a) provide the service but make you pay more b) go on providing the entire service for everybody at a minimal level they can expect, but start dropping packets for those placing an unfair demand, contrasted to the whole.

What they can't be expected to do is go on letting the few burden the many for free. Yes or no, Tateru?

We don't even know that Orange in fact did this packet dropping thing you claim, as we have no sourcing, just a handful of customers, or rivals from another telecom company?

Posted: Jan 27th 2008 6:02AM (Unverified) said

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As long as you're fabricating both sides of the debate, I don't feel there's any really any need for me to participate. It certainly wouldn't be useful or productive - to you, me or anyone else.

You consistently imagine me to hold all manner of opinions or positions on things. You're usually incorrect, but you just don't seem to notice.
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Posted: Jan 27th 2008 7:07AM (Unverified) said

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1. Do you or do you not support net neutrality, Tateru? Surely you can answer a direct question?

2. Do you or do you not have confirmed responses now from the company itself that it deliberately sought to drop Second Life packets? That seems to be at issue here.

3. If you don't want to answer 1 or 2 -- that usually is how it goes here -- then perhaps you can answer a more narrow question: what would you advise a company to do when they have a handful of users making heavy use of their resources on SL, given that they have to keep the service as a whole running for everyone?

It's fine to publish speculation on a blog, but you've done more than that, by sourcing the complaints as anonymous disgruntled users, and also explaining at length what "net neutrality" even *is* then raised the case (so far rather superious) that this company *has* this policy.

Posted: Jan 27th 2008 8:05AM (Unverified) said

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1. I can't say as I do.

I fail to understand why you are so keen to know that, though. It just doesn't seem germane.

2. No we haven't yet. If you take a moment to read the post you'll see why. When or if we get additional information, we'll publish that.

3. I did not say that they have this policy or that they do *not* have this policy, though apparently you seem to think that I did say it. It is *consistent* with such a policy. There *are* other possibilities, but nothing consistent with the information that has so far been made available to us.
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Posted: Jan 27th 2008 8:24AM (Unverified) said

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You seem to be more interested in the writer than in the topic. Flattering, but a little creepy.
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Posted: Jan 27th 2008 10:21AM (Unverified) said

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3. I did not say that they have this policy or that they do *not* have this policy, though apparently you seem to think that I did say it. It is *consistent* with such a policy. There *are* other possibilities, but nothing consistent with the information that has so far been made available to us.

Your being pretty coy there, Tateru. There'd be no reason to have a story like this unless you wanted to point EVERYBODY to the inescapable conclusion that this company has this policy, used it, and even while it shoots themselves in the foot (ostensibly) they'll do it.

That is indeed, the inescapable conclusion to which everyone is pushed, so no fair saying, oh, but I didn't say that, oh, but I didn't mean that, oh, but read it again, I've taken care to blah blah blah.

I think when a serious allegation like this is mounted against a company, bloggers and media have to be challenged by readers to do a little more than just be suspicious (a company about which I know little and have no stake in or reason to support and whose sim I've visited only 2ce to see some interesting, some boring events).

If you personally don't support net neutrality, then you presumably asked these sources why on earth they posited this in the face of no evidence.

Posted: Jan 27th 2008 10:25AM (Unverified) said

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No, Tateru, I'm calling you on your methods. Your methods are to dodge and duck when a comment is made right to the point, and then turn the tables on the reader, as if you are more interested in the reader than the topic (creepy). You slither away, and blame the reader for impugning motives of making assumptions instead of just *answering the question*.

You say "I can't say as I do."

Well...can you say "yes' or "no," Tateru?

Seriously. You know full well that "net neutrality" is all the rage with the Lindens, their close friends, and their coterie of which you are a part. So you would indeed be a black sheep among these net-neutrality boosters if you in fact couldn't say as to whether you support this beloved geek cause, in keeping with the general profile you share with them (platformism, etc.)

I read the posts and I read, obviously, that you didn't have the confirmation yet. So...why the urgency with publishing the story?

You have 2 and half users from the UK who bitched from their favourite hobby horse position screeching about net neutrality and its alleged violation as a reason why they couldn't log into SL (I couldn't get logged in all today either, what, I'm now to suspect that Verizon is hatin' on net neutrality, too, when I think the issue might be more related to SL and its servers?)

Where's the follow-up stories showing that the last 2 days have been ones in which log-on problems have been particularly severe for SL?

Posted: Jan 28th 2008 7:15AM Krystalle Voecks said

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Prokofy Neva --

I've been reading your "comments" for a while. If you want to interview our writers about things they're not discussing in articles, please contact our offices off-blog to see about making arrangements. Using comments to go well and way off-topic from the subject at hand consistently is, no offense meant, an enormous waste of the time they're working for us. Our SL readers could have lots of great new coverage versus staying here and answering questions that have only tangentially anything to do with the posts in question.

Please keep it on-topic in the future. Thank you.

- Krystalle Voecks
Lead
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Posted: Jan 27th 2008 12:12PM (Unverified) said

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I think the 'inescapable conclusion' is that it doesn't actually matter to you what I say. An unalterable position cannot constitute a reasoned discussion. Thankyou for your contributions. I am certain other readers found them to be interesting and enlightening.

Posted: Jan 28th 2008 11:27AM (Unverified) said

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The reason Orange is so bad in the UK is that they over-expanded without the capacity to handle it. When I complained about my service, or lack there of, back in December I was told it was British Telecom's fault. Funny enough I am not on another provider and having problem whatever...on the same telephone line.

NB: I use Orange for my mobile needs, as do my family, and they are very good.

Posted: Jan 28th 2008 11:29AM (Unverified) said

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Tateru, you will undoubtedly admit that Prokofy has a point when he asks you why you published something like this without contacting Orange to see whether or not this is one of their policy...

Unless you have a valid and reliable source, which in this case should probably be named and quoted, this sounds like sensationalism to me.

VdZ, hoping his comment will be considered "on topic".

Posted: Jan 28th 2008 6:03PM (Unverified) said

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Tateru, there were noted SL login problems during the time of the Geekend event. For you to assume it was an intentional throttling from the ISP is silly and bad reporting.

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