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Reader Comments (18)

Posted: Nov 26th 2007 3:35PM (Unverified) said

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I actually built and lead one of those casual raiding guilds that you would have been right at home in. We raided up to Gruul and SSC and we're starting The Eye and we were a home for the casual but skilled player like yourself. Unfourtanetly I got burned out on the new endgame that Blizzard has created. Their is no more room for casual but skilled players. It seems to me that it no longer matters how skilled a player is, all that matters is the time crunch put in to farm rep, farm kara gear, farm enchants and gems. Downing Gruul and beyond their is no margin for a skilled but undergeared player. Previously in MC and old content room could be made for skilled players or good people (that werent necessarily skilled but still deserved to see endgame) and you could still make progress and down bosses. Now...its all a time and numbers crunch.

When I heard the dungeon sizes were shrinking to 25 mans I said "yes! finally the death of the hardcore raiding guilds and the rise of the casual raiding guilds!"

But the reality is that the 25 man content and the no-tolerance for people that havent spent days of /played maxing out their characters, the no-tolerance for even brining an extra tank just to let them experience content, means the true death of the casual raiding guild. Their is no more margin for "error" and "error" in blizzards new estimate is the gamer with a life, the gamer with kids or a significant other, or the unskilled but extremely helpful guildie that comes along. Blizzard just gave a nice big "fuck you" to the best player base in this game, the only ones I really liked playing with, the casual player with a life.

Ah well. Conan will be out soon. : )

Posted: Nov 26th 2007 3:46PM (Unverified) said

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I can see your frustrations. Having 3 70's myself so I know of the pain that you speak.

70 - Dwarf Rogue - Destromath - PVP
70 - Undead Shadow Priest - Lightbringer - PVE
70 - Orc Warrior - Lightbringer - PVE

A good guild is one of the answers for sure. Being in a good guild means having lots of people ready to go at any given time depending on the size of the guild. Lots of people all going for the same goal and willingness to help other guildies more than non.

Also (and I hate to say it) if your playing an Alliance toon your likely hood of getting a good pickup group is somewhat of a joke.
With my alliance character and I almost quit playing him all together because of the very reasons your talking about, but I made a Horde and the difference is night and day (it all depends on your server too of course - big difference from PVP to PVE servers).

Alliance seem very bent on only helping guild mates, where with my Horde toons I did not even join a guild until 70 and had no problems getting help in GC or LFG when grinding chain quests.
The Horde characters have not had any trouble finding help for quests, and in general the pick up groups are a lot better than they were on the alliance side. Maybe it just in my head but it seems people who play horde are more apt to help others where the Alliance people are just out to help if they get something in return. But again could just be my perception.

I say find a good guild and keep it up. Guild is important for end game. But the game can go on in end game if you put some effort into it. And all in all the end game gear is awesome and a lot of fun trying to get it!

- Oh yeah - Hunters are a dime a dozen on all servers and not too high in demand. Make a priest and you will have a hard time choosing which instance to run, I get flooded with invites once I log the priest on. Even on the warrior I get more invites than I have time for. Rogue - not so much as they are over played as well.

Posted: Nov 26th 2007 3:52PM The Last Metroid said

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I'm still working my way towards max lvl on WoW, but the max lvl on DAoC was only the beginning. Getting lvl 50 on DAoC is basically starting the game. That was when you finally get to play in big boy RvR and accumulate realm points to make your character even stronger. Sure, there are some pieces of armor you'd have to farm, but most templates use player crafted armor.

Posted: Nov 26th 2007 4:06PM (Unverified) said

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Well, i have to agree in some regard that wow endgame requires a lot of concurrent playtime... avenues like doing 5 mans, heroics, bgs and arenas are open to you. i was unguilded for 5 months and in that time I managed to get a full set of arena gear with modest 2v2 raitings between 1700-1950.. and 10 games really doesn't take that much time at all.

Posted: Nov 26th 2007 4:06PM Scopique said

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Spot on! Although I have to say that I've never reached the level cap in anything, but all of my friends have in WoW, so I get second hand info from them.

I've never been a fan of the concept of "end game" in an MMO...isn't the point of an MMO NOT to HAVE and end? To each their own, of course, but I'm more about the journey then the arrival.

Posted: Nov 28th 2007 11:28AM Lousir said

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You hit the nail on the head. I play exactly how you play and found the same thing with my 70 horde shammie. I really enjoyed leveling but there is nothing that can be done endgame in the hour or two that we have.

Sure you may be able to do a raid in 2 hours but that does not take into account the 1-2 hours it takes getting one together.

I'm not into pvping and farming rep lost it's appeal.

I wonder if someone should start a guild catering to this type of casual player so that we can have short raids and quests beginning on time and frequently. I would certainly transfer to that server/guild.

Posted: Nov 26th 2007 4:18PM (Unverified) said

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Hell, forget end game, I've had a hard enough time finding a healer to do some of the daily heroics! There could be 3-5 four person groups in the LFG tool looking for a healer, just to do a daily heroic...

Posted: Nov 26th 2007 5:28PM Oneiromancer said

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"Have any of you experienced end-of-level blues like I am? Do you think it's possible to enjoy end game content as a causal player?"

Yep. Once I've finished off the easy quests and run each instance a time or two, I'm done. I don't care much about gear--it's just going to be obsolete when the next expansion comes out. I learned that early, with EQ...in MMORPGs, gear is all about getting you to the next milestone. Quest and dropped gear helps you level, dungeon gear helps you do harder dungeons, raid gear helps you do harder raids. If you don't plan on doing lots of raids...don't whine over not having raid gear. (Okay, that's off-topic and I'm not replying to the original post or anyone in particular, but I just had to say it.)

In EQ, when I hit max level with my Beastlord as a casual player I still kept playing for a few reasons. The LDoNs gave me a way to accumulate points to spend on gear...which they are starting to do now in WoW with honor points and badges and whatnot. But in EQ the real reason I kept grinding away was the AAs. I really enjoyed getting new abilities that sometimes fundamentally changed the way I would play, or the mobs I could take on. For those not familiar with it, imagine diverting your experience to gain talent points instead of getting 1 talent point per level.

But one thing about EQ was that I never really got into any alts. It took so long to get to max level that I just didn't want to do it again. In WoW when I got my Orc Hunter to 60 before BC, I started up a Gnome Mage to see the quests from the other side. That Mage was my first character to 70, and as soon as he finished off his quests and did some dungeons (still 3k gold away from the epic flying mount) I went back to my Hunter to get him to 70. And now he is...and I'm still finishing up some quests, but I've returned to EQ2 for a time. I never got to max level in that game and I'm really enjoying my Conjuror (I just love me some pet classes, although the WoW Mage I like better than the Warlock for some reason) and will probably make it all the way to the end this time.

So in essence, I believe most "casual" players (and I'm really more hardcore anyway, just not a raider), when they hit max level, should feel free to start a new alt, or just change games. I have no compunction about switching to a new game from WoW...I don't hate the game, I just don't want to play it at max level. When WotLK comes out, I'll be right back heading for 80, enjoying the exploration of the new zones and checking out the new spells and talents. Don't feel like you have to stay in the game...there's no reason you can't come back when there's new content for you. Your friends will understand, right?

Posted: Nov 26th 2007 6:01PM (Unverified) said

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Totally relate to how you feel except I got that feeling six months after I maxxed my hunter and then got to 42 with my rogue (before expansion). All that was left for my hunter was to raid or pvp, I'm not real interested in pvp but I did participate every now and again.

Raiding the same instances over and over got old fast, not to mention the time to coordinate the raids. Just like every other mmo, gear is the driving force.

Posted: Nov 26th 2007 6:41PM GRT said

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"Have any of you experienced end-of-level blues like I am?"

Yup. Pre-BC I got a hunter to 60, and happily I was in a good guild. Less happily I'd also just recently been laid off, so I had lots of time to do 5 & 10 man instances. But as soon as I started working again, I couldn't find the time and I quit WoW.

Right now I'm leveling a paladin... my friends, who've moved servers, keep trying to get me to transfer my hunter to the new server I rolled the pally on, but I don't see the point...first, as we all know, hunters are overly abundant, and second, if I moved and started from 60 I'd just hit cap and have to move to another game that much sooner.

"Do you think it's possible to enjoy end game content as a causal player?"

Certainly not in WoW. Maybe in other games, I dunno. WoW is the first MMO I hit cap in... I usually get called away by some other game before hitting cap.

I suggest you just move on. There're lots of games to check out!

Posted: Nov 26th 2007 7:12PM GreenArmadillo said

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I'm largely in the same shoes, and I'd argue that the problem is that games which charge a monthly fee don't like to admit that they're simply out of content. It isn't unfair to have content in the game that requires structured time commitment, and WoW does better than almost any other game out there in terms of offering alternatives that can be completed on your own time (e.g. daily quests, PVP rewards, profession BoP items). It's just that there comes a point where you run out of content that can be completed by someone with your level of commitment, and there isn't a message that says "Grats, you win, re-roll or come back next expansion!"

My best advice? Take a vacation. I canceled WoW back in April and picked up LOTRO. The solo content in LOTRO lasted me about 5 months. Now I'm back in WoW in time to check out the improvements from patches 2.1, 2.2, and 2.3. If they don't have 2.4 out by the time I'm done with what I'm up to now, I'll take another break, maybe go visit EQII since that got some good coverage over here recently. By the time I'm done with that (whether I make the level cap or decide it's not my thing), Blizzard will have rolled out some more patches or maybe even the new expansion. It's nothing personal, there's just a limit to how quickly an MMO company can roll out content.

The most important thing to remember is that you're paying them to keep you entertained. If you're not entertained anymore, the worst thing you can do is stick around and be unhappy about it.

Posted: Nov 26th 2007 7:37PM Naoki7 said

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I know pretty much exactly what you're going through. Ive been on both sides of the endgame: I've been in hardish-core raiding guilds on my horde priest, up to Gruul, Mag and Al'ar in TK (no SSC though); and I've been a guildless 70 hunter on alliance side, doing endless 5 mans and scrounging all the gear I can get in order to try and "prove" myself worthy enough to get back into a big raiding guild. I rolled my hunter cause I was sick of the crap that raiding gives you, and I when I got bored of not raiding I took a long break from the game. Now, I have a whacky school schedule so I can't raid, but I just got back into playing and I'm leveling a druid (again, I'm an altoholic too, sadly).

I worry that when I hit 70, finish all my quests, get my epic flight form, and run out of stuff to do, it'll be just like my hunter all over again. Druids might be more in demand but since I can't raid, there won't be much for me to work towards. For now I'm only level 35 so I have a ways to go, with lots of the new midlevel quests they added in, but I can't think of anything that would keep me playing at 70 unless I magically got really good at PVP or something. All of the good stuff is raid-only, and while I would love to get back into that (*cough*) my schedule doesn't permit it. I guess I'll just take it one day at a time and enjoy it while I can.

Posted: Nov 27th 2007 12:49PM (Unverified) said

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Played WoW for two years and I had the same blues. This was Pre-BC and had a 60 Hunter, Rogue and was working on a Shammie. Got bored.

Played Guild Wars for a while but really could not get into it.

Then in August, I picked up Lord of the Rings Online. Now, I am an altaholic and this has been the most forgiving game alt-wise! I have a level 40 Burglar (more intelligent version of a Rogue) and am really enjoying it.

There seem to be an abundance of Casual-Centered Kins (Guilds) in LotRO. Couple this with what appears to be a player-base that is above the norm maturity wise and you have a great relaxing game.

Keep in mind folks that games are supposed to be fun.

Posted: Nov 27th 2007 10:12AM (Unverified) said

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I have this same issue. It's led me to give up my 70 for a few months. I came back after 2.3 and things are a lot better. The daily quests give you some gold, some fun, and the BG quests are interesting and give you a reason to go, especially for someone who doesn't really care about honor points. I'm grinding up my leatherworking and working towards 5000g for my epic mount. I get on for about 1-2 hours a night for some solo play. I had the same problem - couldn't get a PUG, no Kara, and after all that fun solo content, I kind of hit a brick wall. But the new patch gave me a lot of new stuff to do and brought new life back into the game for me.

Posted: Nov 27th 2007 12:23PM epsilonorion said

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I long for the day that they decide to make one or two people dungeons. Why can't there be dungeons that a casual player can't play. It has the same situations as a regular instance, more difficult then questing on your own, and maybe a little longer then the usual instance. The length can be fixed by allowing the player to stop the game and come back to that same place at a later time.

This way us causal players can still play the endgame stuff, enjoy ourselves without having to wait for horrible pugs, and still get some good armor and weapons. The only drawback is the complaints that the single man dungeons would take away from the big raid groups. As I said, if you increase the time that a single player dungeon will take, then most people who can would rather group up with the "faster" raid groups.

Posted: Nov 27th 2007 10:23PM (Unverified) said

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This kind of stuff made me go to DAoC. I really enjoyed that game, but I had to quit it because I'm shipping out for USAF basic training. But I'll probably be back on it after I get settled. If not DAoC, then LOTRO or EQ2. WoW is just boring now.

Posted: Nov 28th 2007 12:02PM (Unverified) said

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I am in almost exactly the same situation, but I have a guild. I leveled my hunter to 70 with a casual guild, we didnt' do much instances, as in 5 people of the same level. Further since I'm a hunter it was hard to find PUGs for anything. I ran ZA and ST a bit, and that was it for pre-BC instances.

Post BC, basically same thing, just did a handful of instances until 70. After about a week of /played at 70 I finally finished all the quests you can do solo. Finding a group for the 3,4,5 man group stuff is just a PITA, i have a good dozen of those quests in my queue that will probably never be done. Its so hard to find people at the exact same point of progression that it's just impossible to find a group. If you do find a group, then chances are most people inthe group won't get anything out of it, ie they dont have the quest, or have already done it. To do the Ogri'la stuff, you need to do 4 or so 5 mans, i did manage to get it done one night and spent like 6 hours doing it. At least you can do the skyguard dailies for a bit without requiring the group work.

To my mind, Blizz has really set a very hard barrier between people who want to enjoy the post-70 content, and those who will spend literally all day playing to get a few quests done (or really, waiting around to get group members to get quests done). It takes so much more effort at 70 to get the gear you need to advance, but the difference is huge. I think I doubled my dps, and I know I can double or triple it again, just due to gear. (think about that, a fully epiced player being 5 fold better than a newly minted 70).

Then there's the issue of the Hunter, where you are scorned and can't find a PUG to save your life (how many PUGs say 'just need hunter and gtg'), then you show up in the high end stuff and find out you have no idea how to play in a group, because you never played in a real group. For example, I ran some people through slave pits, it was a complete joke. We were doing stuff that would wipe you in five seconds flat in a heroic, but since you are basically 10 levels above the mobs, you can practically solo it. We finished in in about 30 minutes. Then you get to heroics, and wipe on the first trash mobs, and realize you have no idea how to play your class.

But fear not, there is a demand for hunters at 70. freeze trap becomes hugely important, in some cases you are the only method of crowd control your group has. And hunters are usually #1 in DPS, so without us the raid wipes because they cant kill bosses.

Anyway, long rant, but yeah end game is very hard, and a huge time sink if you let it. But if you can afford to play two days of 5 hours then you can run kara. You will need to find a guild who is willing to help you get attuned, there is no other way (in my mind) to do the attunement. But if you have at most 10 hours a week to play, you can do the high end stuff. It helps if you can find a group of similiarly minded people and make a firm schedule. Lastly note there is a ton of stuff to do at level 70, alot of it is repetitive but i urge you to check out PvP in battlegrounds, I found that to be alot of fun (especially AV). You just need to organize your time more, which is tricky.

Posted: Nov 30th 2007 12:23PM (Unverified) said

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I totally agree with your points and analysis.

I got to 60 (pre-expansion) with a rogue and loved it - it was the first time I actually stuck it out long enough to get to the top level of anything (took me about 9 months I think) as soon as I hit 60 though things started to slow down. I stuck around at the start of TBC, but then realised a lot of that needed grouping, and grouping takes too long.....

I left the game for about 6m, but just came back last month and I'm levelling a warrior now and loving it - having the gold to finance decent kit a low level helps enormously, but I still HATE grouping. I suspect I'll get as high as I can go before the levelling needs a lot of grouping, and then I'll start again with another char.

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