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Reader Comments (16)

Posted: Nov 2nd 2007 8:09AM (Unverified) said

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The unbalance of PVP in EVE is why I quit. While I honestly do appretitate the realism of it, there is no experience as frustrating as having a ship you saved 4 months to purchase, and out fitted with all the best swag your meager earnings could get and all the skill points you invested in it, only to have it shot out from under you before you could gt a shot off. To add insult to injury, your insurance pay off will never be enough to even come close to compensating for the loss.

If ships could be properly salvaged and repaired following a PVP gank, I would come back, but as is, it's just too unfriendly a universe.

PS-Concord needs a swift kick in the afterburner, KILL MORE RATS PEOPLE!

Posted: Nov 2nd 2007 10:01AM (Unverified) said

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Now this appeals to me somewhat, I like the thought that there's a very very real threat of losing everything, I haven't played this game but this post has seriously made me consider it.

I'm thinking, are there 'guilds'? I'd imagine these could become very serious affairs with revenge killings and what-not?
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Posted: Nov 2nd 2007 10:06AM Mike Schramm said

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Yup, it's a pretty harsh world out there. There are corporations, which are guilds basically, and yeah, if you get war-decced (war declared), you're screwed unless you escape to low security space and arm yourself up.
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Posted: Nov 2nd 2007 10:41AM (Unverified) said

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It is both real and not at the same time. Being destroyed in hostile territory while on a mission is one thing. But being obliterated by another player who is just doing it for kicks, costing you months of work is rather harsh. Security via the NPC Concord space police is rather lax especially when it comes to PKs.

If you play Eve you have to accept the limitations and consequences, which has some nice ring to it, but the actual event is not as facinating.

In another context, if PVP in WoW was like it is in EVE, a 70 tauren can go around and kill everyone, and if he kills you, all your gear is destroyed (Gone, unrepairable, deleted) and you are SoL.
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Posted: Nov 2nd 2007 11:35AM (Unverified) said

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EVE is a massive time sink in many ways, but it is not as intensive as WoW.

There is no leveling in EVE, instead you have skills which are constantly training even when you are not logged in. Think of it like subliminal learning tapes. These skills can train in as little as 10 minutes to upwards of 3 months to complete, but you can stop and change skills at any time and pick up where you left off. Skills range from accesing your factions various ship levels to weapon speicalizaion to group tactics enhancements. Since the skills tran while you are not even playing, it is less time consuming. BUT money and crafting in EVE is much worse than in WoW. In WoW you can farm enough primals for an enchantment in a hard working day. Getting the ISK (in game money) to afford a basic cruiser (3-5 million isk) can take you weeks. To get the skills to operate said cruiser can also cost in the 100k to 1m range, sometimes much much more.

Money can be made several ways. Running missions is a steady, but relativly small source of income depending on the level of your agent and your allignment to them. Missions range from courier to supply runs, bounty hunter and enemy elimination on various scales. You can also manufaction or Mine ores to sell to NPCs or on the open market. Another popular pay off is to be a full time bounty hunter. If a player has a bounty put on their head (Usually for ganking someone) you can in turn kill them to collect the pay off.

Professions and classes exist to a point in that you can train in skills to manufacture products (ammo, ships, modules) or perform specific tasks such as mining, salvage, electronic warfare, strike fighting to capital ship command. You can skill up in any or al of these, and you just need to change ships or the modules on your ship to do more.

As I have mentioned earlier, death in EVE has major consequences. When you purchase a ship you must then outfit it with equipment at costs. Your ship can then be insured at a range of reimbursment rates. But even at platinum (max) insurance, the pay off should your ship be destoryed is never enough to cover the costs of a new ship and comparable equipment. In addition, after your ship itself is destroyed, your Pod (escape pod/bridge module) can also be destroyed, killing your character permenantly. The only way avoid this fate is to constaly have a clone avaialble at your local base of operations. The costs are negligible by comparison, but clones can only retian so many of your skill points depending on the cost of the clone.

The economy of the game is very immersive and the game is simply gorgeous.
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Posted: Nov 2nd 2007 11:47AM (Unverified) said

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The "unbalance" of eve is not really an unbalance it is more of a "reality" it is what keeps me and everyone I know going back. It is the adrenaline rush of pvp knowing that if you lose you lose everything you have worked for. It is knowing if you kill this guy you can take what he has worked for. It is all ways watching your back and not trusting the game developers to bail you out. Scamming is a game mechanic and considered legal. Grief to you hearts content but realize that the guy you are grieving could have his buddy's one system over coming to kill you. Pirate someone and hold hostage their pod or their ship. The is no limit. Eve is what the players make of it and we like our harsh universe.
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Posted: Nov 2nd 2007 10:56AM (Unverified) said

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Sorry if it's bad form to multiple post, but I'm intrigued as to whether or not this game is as much of a time sink as WoW? How difficult would it be to make myself a reasonable 'force'?

Posted: Nov 2nd 2007 12:46PM (Unverified) said

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Well see that's what I am saying. The reality factor has its' charms, but it is immensly harsh. There are no limits to the PVP other than an occasional luck of a Concord patrol. You can get snared and warp scrabled by a pait of battlecruisers in your freighter and raped, and there is nothing you can do. You have to be willing to deal with a universe like that to play EVE. now I am not a carebear, I like my pvp, but I also like to control when and how it goes down, and EVE does not offer that choice, nor do they offer realistic consequences to the offending players.

As Eve strives to be "real" they miss one vital fact: It is a game, and it needs to be fun. Losing 50m isk worth of ship to a ganker is not fun. If they wanted more reaity, I get murdered, the police (Gm/concord) should be out hunting the guy down and killing/jailing him. Instead they roam free and continue to rat other players.

I think the reason this bugs me so much is because if not for the PVP, I and many of my friends would come back to EVE. Part of the problem is that it is the only space based MMO on the market, and it cannot be all games to everyone.
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Posted: Nov 2nd 2007 5:05PM (Unverified) said

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@ Vestras

You and your friends would come back if PvP wasn't so harsh, but CCP would also lose some current players that like that feature. I stopped playing MMOs currently due to house payments raping me, but if I were to go back to MMOs, then Eve would be the place for my playstyle (because of the harsh environment).

Another note, Eve did not invent the harsh MMO PvP environment - that would be Ultima Online. They eventually toned UO down, which is why I quit the game. My point being is that there's a different playstyle for everyone, and Eve Online addresses the needs of people seeking the heart-pounding excitement that comes with the threat of losing.

I would actually stand still when a fight was lost in WoW, why would I need to waist time running when there's no loss upon death?

You are right that it's the only space MMO out there (to my knowledge), but instead of changing the current PvP system loved by the subscribers, why not voice for a new game to be created. If Eve Online had multiple gaming servers, they could have a non-PvP one to suit your needs - now that's an idea!

Posted: Nov 3rd 2007 5:44AM (Unverified) said

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I just canceled my eve account last week. I played the game for over 4 months and had two accounts. I did lots of research into the game and trained all of the best PVP skills I could. And after spending 4 months training skills and outfitting a ship it was absolutely and utterly pointless. Players were so far ahead of me in ship tech and skill points there was no point in playing.

The only way I could see some action where I wasn't the one being chased from system to system or having to hide in a station for hours was if I was with my corp protecting me.

Even with my corp I was pretty much like a useless little brother.

I spent hours upon hours, even days just going system to system buying parts for my ship or buying implants only to lose it all in under 3 seconds because I warped into a gate camp and had 0% chance of survival.

I could go on for hours about how cool Eve is. But as a new play who loves to pvp, you have a LONG LONG LONG wait ahead of you, Months, maybe even a year for some depending on if you want to do some solo or duo pvp. The learning curve and insane waitfest was too much for me.

Posted: Nov 3rd 2007 9:52AM (Unverified) said

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Eve is not about knowing how to pvp even though thats part of it, its about knowing how not to die. For a start don't go to low security space without being prepared or you die, I'm sure where-ever any of you guys live there is a place where you just don't go for a stroll at night, its the same in eve except there is no day and you have a clone :) . In safe areas police just don't pop out of bushes whenever a crime is committed and stop the act from happening - in eve you will usually be left alone in safe space unless your carrying a very valuable cargo in an easily destroyable ship.

As for wow, two level 35s cant kill a level 70 eve is very different, its all situational. One frigate can cause the death of a battleship just by holding it down for some friends to come and kill. You can be as proficient as you'll ever want to be in a frigate (and well on your way for a cruiser) within 4 months and the only thing older players have on you is more real time experience with the game and a wider range of ships at there disposal and that frigate is always going to be useful - nobody likes your target getting away because everybody turned up in big slow ships.

Eve is best enjoyed with people, the camaraderie of fighting alongside your corpmates is great, so join a player corporation and if your having no fun and/or getting no help from your corp join another, i recommend Eve University they love helping getting new players onto their feet and are good at it.

Money(isk) in eve is the "grind" all other mmos have as levels except you can lose it, so its best not to have all your eggs in one basket so to speak always have enough isk in your wallet to replace the ship your flying twice over if not fly a lower class of ship and when you lose it you wont feel desolate at the lose of all your belongings. It gets better with time i can earn enough isk in 30mins now to buy and fit that cruiser.

Enjoy eve online it's not a game it's a virtual world - driven by other players 99% of the stuff you buy will be them and 100% of the story. Not for faint at heart.

Shame about the lag though, doesn't take seven hundred people trying to kill each other all at once well. :D

Posted: Nov 5th 2007 8:44AM (Unverified) said

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See I still disagree and yet I do see a few of your points.

On PVP, yes a non-pvp server (or one where getting a PK causes MASSIVE security rating changes) would be great, but it would also hurt the game as you said. The system is still imperfect imo as it does nothing to disuade players from murdering he people just passing through.

On a related topic is the ISK grind: The costs of replacing lost ships and outfitting new ones are astronomical once you pass the basic cruisers. In order to fund progress to larger more advanced ships, you need a method to make a lot of ISK. For some, that is missions, for others it is mining. A lot of my friends prefer pirate hunting. Trouble is to face opponents who pay a reasonable amount, you have to go into abou .4 space, where you run a constant risk of one of those 3 year rat-ganker's roaming who will rape you for his own jollies. Yes it is a choice to go into .4, but .4 is not .0. I would be a lot happier if the PVP could be limited to 0.0 space, thereby allowing them to deal with one another away from those who are not prepared to face them.

Posted: Nov 5th 2007 11:49PM BusyBrowser said

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i quit because i had no time not because unfair pvp. YES i got my arse handed to me several times. guess what? EVERYONE does. You think there's any one single player in EVE that is uber and never dies? LOL

They have insurance and clones - use them. You have a choice to stay in empire run missions mine etc. and never get into PVP. OR you join a corp...and if you're into PVP join an alliance and make sure you get a good one. You can fly around 0.0 as "safe" as you can get which is pretty damn safe depending where you are.

However the point I wanted to make was unlike WoW or what not EVEN a noob can be of value. A very critical member in a fleet battle. Little frigates are just as valuable as battleships. Often times I would fly a frigate, lose almost nothing be gutsy (and oddly those were the times i lived) and have a blast. I didn't need the level 5 battleship I had trained or anything like that. I used to setup guides specifically for lower skill point players.

You could really outfit some ships with some tricks at a low level and be quite effective. EVE is the biggest puzzle I've ever seen in my entire life and there's always ways to counter things and always options. You just have to guess at what you're going up against or you run. You have options and you have to be smart.

I think that makes it the best PVP game in the world quite honestly. It has risks, consequences, and strategy.

Posted: Nov 5th 2007 11:52PM BusyBrowser said

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oh and you ALWAYS have a ship to rat hunt/mine and then ships for PVP. that's extra insurance. when you lose your prized pvp ship you fly a smaller one til you make money to get big one.

just gotta be smart about it guys. but ABSOLUTELY I agree it's the most frustrating thing in the world and your stomach sinks when you lose that kinda time investment.

Posted: Nov 11th 2007 12:49PM (Unverified) said

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Eve rewards you for taking risks and for making friends. I spent a few months playing by myself (I picked a relatively unpopular starter corp and I didn't run into people much) but it only took a few weeks till cruisers were cheap to fly and replace.

High level missions and 0.0 ratting allow you to make vast amounts of money. Ratting gets you 1/3 of your money from bounties, 1/3 from selling/refining loot, and 1/3 from selling salvage/making rigs. In about an hour in the very low quality part of 0.0 where I live, I typically make 20M in bounties, with 40M in assets to deal with later. 1 month of ratting gets me enough minerals to make 14 battleships (worth 90-110M isk each) outside of one or two key minerals. By not ratting overly much (lots of PVP, reds coming through, etc) it's fairly easy to make 4+ B a month as a noob (my char is 5 months old, been in 0.0 for 3 months).

You lose ships very frequently! To stupidity (falling asleep while ratting with an active tank), to noobness (not safing up with a red, aka known hostile/pirate, in system), to suicide ganking in "safe space" (lag did it's part... I was undocking Jita 4-4 with 400M in a tanked hauler... that hurt, especially since I was only 2 months old at the time), and to crashes. But I've got a very healthy wallet, lots of assets, a space in a very good 0.0 alliance, and gaining lots of experience in PVP and leading gangs against the best PVPers in the game.

Getting into a 0.0 alliance is very key to making Eve work. You quickly make friends with very experienced people, they help focus you on areas you can contribute immediately in PVP, you can make billions in isk, and there's always something to do. If you're a new player, frigates/interceptors are the best way to fight. You have to fight with friends and be ready to lose ships (I lost an inty last night when our group got separated and things got a little confused), but it's great fun and the only way to play.

As for unbalanced PVP, Eve demonstrates the utility and relevance of Sun Tzu and Machiavelli. Yesterday our alliance was face with a 30-50 man gang of one of the top 3 groups in the game. We brought a similar 30-50 man group. It was mainly a scouting duel, as both large groups moved back and forth across 3 systems, with at least half if not a full system between the main groups at all time. Our opponents wanted to wait on a gate for us to come through, and we wanted them to come though a gate to us. We both wanted to prepare the ground for our own advantage like Napoleonic armies. The op-for, being very good, very smart, having very good intel, and a fair bit of experience with us in the last weeks, eventually refused the fight when they saw that we weren't going to concede them the high-ground. Our gang was made up of chars from 3 months to 4 years old. Some people can only fly a few ships, some people can fly all races' ships up to BS and some racial cap ships with full T2 weapons.

Posted: Nov 29th 2007 4:42PM (Unverified) said

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"The "unbalance" of eve is not really an unbalance it is more of a "reality"..."

Well said. If there are no consequences in the game then there aren't really any risks and in turn not many exciting experiences. WoW is a good example of this, as death in it is a joke. The only time death in WoW actually becomes substantial and a true consequence is when you die repeatedly during a raid.

Therefore, EVE takes the right approach. Anything above a Cruiser isn't really an individuals ship, even though one person is controlling it. They are really corporation (guild) ships, no matter how much you want to think it's yours, because many people are required to help in obtaining the resources / funds to acquire it. Thus if you want to be willing to take risks in the game (to make it enjoyable), you should be doing so with what you can afford to lose (and of course that's a gambling rule as well).

For myself, when I played it. I focused on making money as quickly as possible with the lowest costs. Therefore instead of going out and doing combat which can be costly if you lose your ship, I instead focused on being a runner / courier who carried small amounts of high valued cargo in inexpensive expendable fast ships. I think one of my best runs was making 4 of 5 million isk in a single run using a fast frigate with no guns.

With salvaging now, I think it's easy to make a million isk in an hour or two without much risk, since .5 space is relatively safe (with the odd chance of a player pirating you).

But ya if you want to wage war and do lots of combat, expect to pay for it. Wars are expensive and take a lot of support and resources to run, just like in real life which is why diplomacy and politics can be so engaging.

As for enjoyment of the game, EVE has it's ups and downs, as all games do. For me, I left because I'm more interested in more social community scenes but without having to join a corporation / guild to do so. Therefore, when CCP gets around to finally allowing the ability to walk around in stations with all the social amenities (i.e. bars, etc) then I'll definitely give it a go again. I'll also be highly interested to see if they use this new technology for other things later as well (i.e. vid screen for ship to ship communications, ability to walk around ship, multiple people controlling a ship, etc).

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